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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Is Oclott a Liar?
Date: Sat, 11 May 2024 12:46:02 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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On 5/11/24 12:26 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/11/2024 3:27 AM, Mikko wrote:
>> On 2024-05-11 02:21:10 +0000, olcott said:
>>
>>> On 5/10/2024 9:17 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 5/10/24 7:39 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 5/10/2024 5:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/10/24 6:28 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/10/2024 4:59 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/10/24 5:43 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2024 4:19 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/24 5:11 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2024 3:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/24 4:27 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2024 3:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/24 1:49 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2024 11:12 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/24 11:50 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2024 9:18 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/9/24 11:10 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/9/2024 9:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/9/24 11:38 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/8/2024 8:38 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/05/24 21:05, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/8/2024 10:13 AM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/05/2024 14:01, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/8/2024 3:59 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-07 19:05:54 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/7/2024 1:54 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 07.mei.2024 om 17:40 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/7/2024 6:18 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/7/24 3:30 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-06 18:28:37 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/6/2024 11:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-05 17:02:25 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The x86utm operating system: 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/plolcott/x86utm 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enables
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one C function to execute another C 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> function in debug step mode.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simulating Termination analyzer H 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulates the x86 machine code of its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input (using libx86emu) in debug step 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mode until it correctly matches a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct non-halting behavior pattern 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> proving that its input will never
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stop running unless aborted.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can D correctly simulated by H 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terminate normally?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 00 int H(ptr x, ptr x)  // ptr is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pointer to int function
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 01 int D(ptr x)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 02 {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 04   if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 05     HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 06   return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 07 }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 08
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 09 int main()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10 {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 11   H(D,D);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 12 }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Execution Trace*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Line 11: main() invokes H(D,D);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *keeps repeating* (unless aborted)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Line 03: simulated D(D) invokes 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated H(D,D) that simulates D(D)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Simulation invariant*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> D correctly simulated by H cannot 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly reach past its own line 03.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The above execution trace proves that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (for every H/D pair of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> infinite set of H/D pairs) each D(D) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by the H that this D(D)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calls cannot possibly reach past its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> own line 03.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When you say "every H/D pair" you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should specify which set of pairs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you are talking about. As you don't, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your words don't mean anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Every H/D pair in the universe where 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> D(D) is simulated by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same H(D,D) that D(D) calls. This 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involves 1 to ∞ steps of D
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and also includes zero to ∞ recursive 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulations where H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H simulates itself simulating D(D).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "In the universe" is not a set. In 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> typical set theories like ZFC there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is no universal set.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This template defines an infinite set of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finite string H/D pairs where each D(D) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is simulated by H(D,D) also calls this 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same H(D,D).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> These H/D pairs can be enumerated by the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one to ∞ simulated steps of D and involve 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> zero to ∞ recursive simulations of H 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulating itself simulating D(D). Every 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time Lines 1,2,3 are simulated again defines
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one more level of recursive simulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1st element of H/D pairs 1 step  of D  is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2nd element of H/D pairs 2 steps of D are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3rd element of H/D pairs 3 steps of D are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4th element of H/D pairs 4 steps of D are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this begins the first recursive simulation 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at line 01
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5th element of H/D pairs 5 steps of D are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next step of the first recursive simulation 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at line 02
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6th element of H/D pairs 6 steps of D are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> last step of the first recursive simulation 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at line 03
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7th element of H/D pairs 7 steps of D are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this begins the second recursive simulation 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at line 01
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this the definition of the infinite set 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of H? We can think of many more simulations 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that only these.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This template defines an infinite set of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finite string H/D pairs where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each D(D) that is simulated by H(D,D) also 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calls this same H(D,D).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No-one can possibly show one element of this 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> set where D(D) reaches
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past its own line 03.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If H is a decider of any kind then the D build 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from it reaches its line
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4 as numberd above. Whether the simulation of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> D by H reaches that line
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is another question.
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