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From: Jos Boersema <Josjoha@market.socialism.nl>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: e
Date: Sat, 11 May 2024 17:25:09 -0000 (UTC)
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title: Full version: Another year and Moshiach isn’t here… 
link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HiM4UZ-RLY&t=106s
source: Israel Torah

Someone wrote: 

 Even during 1940 moshiach didnt come

Reply: ...

Well, I wrote a lot of the usual, but seem to have failed to copy/paste
it fast enough, and now youtube (Google) is even hiding my own reply
from me.

It doesn't really matter though, if the sencorship becomes even more
extreme soon, or if they will disable the entire Internet and mop up the
few remaining places of free expression because the masses can only
focus on what everyone else is focussing on (the fraudulent mass media,
owned by the Plutocracy). It doesn't really matter, because people made
their choice for the lies already. 

There has been enough time of free speech and debate, to see that if there
was a large enough amount of people capable and willing to be honest
and care for the truth, something should have happened by now. Nothing
happened, the lies keep going strong, and this is simply because the vast
(vast) majority does not care about anything regarding serious topics
of the system, of politics, etc.

If it takes this long to admit the truth, such a people cannot live in a
society based on equality and talking to each other. They are either too
evil, or too stupid, or both, and that will destroy everything sooner or
later. Dictatorship is also not an option, although it at least causes
people to learn discipline. The discipline to listen that is, and the
skills to deal with logic to a sufficient degree, like ...

  Do not pay debt with more debt, because that is an escalating amount
  of debt which eventually leads to your complete bankruptcy (assuming
  debt is on interest, which it typically is).

They can already not deal with this, and that is on the top level of
society. They cannot deal with a statement like this (see the National
debt, which is exactly: paying debt with more debt, and which proves
this society is insane, or has insanity at its core). How can you have a
society with this kind of people ? The answer is: only temporarily.
Temporarily until the madness breaks out again, in whatever form:
Tyranny, war, hysteria, economic collapse, etc.

 *

Anyway, the gist of my reply above was: don't blame the moshiach, blame
yourselves (etc. etc.). The "onus" is put on the moshiach, rather than
on Israel following the Torah, or refusing to. I am wondering if this is
going to be a new movement within Israel, especially after the second
holocaust (7 times worse) has happened, and they realize that there is
no 'moshiach' to save them, because they do not want to do truth and
justice. They cannot be saved, because they are themselves the
destroyers.

How do you save pyromaniacs from their own fire ? You can do it for a
while maybe, watch them closely, but eventually things must return to
their own nature, their own will. You cannot watch people 100% of the
time, into infinity, forever. That itself would be a bad thing, a
dictatorship or worse. You can save the pyromaniacs, if you can teach
them that fire hurts. You let them set fire, and you let them get hurt
by it. Maybe they learn, maybe they will learn later. Once they learned,
they can be saved: they are not pyromaniacs anymore, they do not set
everyhing on fire anymore. 

This is how it is with Israel. They are pyromaniacs of sorts, who set
injustice in their own society. This is not about a comparison with the
gentiles, who are worse. This is about the stability of that society,
regardless of what is outside of it - be that masses of gentiles, or
nothing but wilderness and no humans. 

There is basically two levels of fraud with the prosbul:
1. Breaking the law of the 7th year debt forgiveness.
2. Pretending that this law breaking is not law breaking.

I don't know which is worse, but the first one could be called a crime
of greed, of menace to your own people (the poor), while the second can
be called a crime of lying, of deception, of creating ideological
confusion, chaos in the head. The first crime hurts the poor directly:
their loans are no longer cancelled (spare me the babble that at least
now they get loans, to give loans is already an obligation which can and
should be enforced where necessary). The second crime hurts the good,
the moral (the Tzadikim, the Jewish people might perhaps say, although I
can't believe anyone can be called by this name while holding to the
prosbul as real). If it doesn't hurt the Tzadikim by definition, because
they would see through the lie immideately, then it could still hurt
less developed people who want to be good. They may get confused and
their lives of becoming better may to a degree be derailed. They think
they do the Torah, they want to do the Torah, they even want to
sacrifice for the Torah including money, but they get derailed by the
Rabbis who tell them this lie. They then conduct this lie as part of
their lives (they conduct a prosbul, in such a manner that the loan is
going to be repaid past the 7 year), and then unwittingly they become
part of this Rabbinical system of crime.

THis is a form of pyromania, so to say. It sets fires against the peace.
They do it themselves, and therefore it becomes meaningless to put such
people into a nice spot, as they will burn it down themselves. It is
better that they live within the burned out ruins of what has been
burned before, to learn about the pain and suffering caused by
pyromania, until they stop wanting to set such fires (fires to burn down
people their houses and such, is what I mean; this is all about the face
value meaning). There is where the Jewish people are living: a world so
insane they have put paying debt with debt at the core of their society,
and the debt will not be cancelled. The Jewish people are exactly where
they need to be, given their level of law breaking.

HKB'H has put them exactly where they need to be. See the perfection.
It will be *wrong* for any 'moshiach' to help Israel get out of this
problem, and put them for example in Paradice, in the Geulah
(Redemption), until they give up on their law breaking and their
(feigned?) ignorance about it.

You give the pyromaniac to live in the slums, where burning things down
is not even that bad, until they learn. When they finally give up on
wanting to burn things down, you can give them a lovely cottage with a
straw roof next to a beautiful clear stream in the woods or in a cute
village or town. Then they can live there, and will not themselves
destroy it.

You can argue: ok, but if you put them in a nice spot, and they ruin it
themselves, *then* they have something serious to cry about. Maybe then
they will finally realize the cost of such lies as the prosbul, of
seeking rent on loans from your friends, of not giving people the right
to land, all and forever, etc. Good point ! Exactly that has already
been done: HKB'H took them out of Egypt, and gave them a nice place.
They ruined it themselves, and now they have something to cry about.
Only now they can really appreciate the difference, especially when
things get worse and worse, such as a Nazi holocaust. It increases the
preassure on learning, so to speak.

In other words: it has already all been done, it does not have to be
repeated. 

The waiting is on Israel, the whole world is waiting on Israel to redeem
themselves. Meanwhile, the natural concesquences of all this ill
conceived law and behavior will take their effects (together with all
the good that is being done.) Israel is tarrying again, as usual, and as
it was in the beginning. I can understand a lot of that (to be honest),
but what I do not understand is the lies on the official top level of
society, where things like the prosbul dare to show themselves in print,
can be discussed widely and on the highest level of that society, yet
remain or become accepted as good and true. 

If someone doesn't make a loan they should have, or doesn't cancel a loan
they should have, all of that is just how life goes, and sometimes
punishment will have to be effectuated (law enforcement). I can also
understand how law enforcement can become corrupted at times and places,
or event entire Nations or worse. I can also understand it if a people
fall under a Tyrant, enforced by a blood thirsty army with no way out,
that they will just have to go with whatever the crazies of power are
telling them, because otherwise it is dungeons and death for them.

What I cannot comprehend is how the Jewish people have nothing to fear
right now and at many times in the past it was the same, and they have
been spread out so much in so many small pockets, yet they still accept
an obvious lie like the prosbul on the highest level of their society,
with a straight face as if they are serious - they seem to be serious !
(what a joke). Moreover, the Islam is against their rent seeking as
well, and so in many cases is the idolatry religion of the Roman Empire,
and even the Communists hate the bankers the most. There seems to be a
lot of pressure on the Jewish people exactly in the right direction.
They are not forced by a tyrant, as far as I can see, to force the
prosbul down their throat, or the heter iska, at least not since the
corrupt 2nd Temple was destroyed (which in this view, you could see as a
liberation, liberation from a power core which had turned *against* the
Torah, so that you can return to the Torah again, without fear).

This is exactly what I am asking: to stop lying about the ideal. To what
degree and how the 7th year debt cancellation needs to be enforced is a
whole other topic, and also important. However first things first, and
most importantly: the ideal, clean and good, needs to be that what it
is, so that at least those who want to choose to follow that ideal, are
not confused. You can choose against that ideal (not be Jewish) or you
can follow it (be Jewish or follow their ways), and you don't have to
deal with the more or less oficial power in your society (now the Rabbis
to a degree ta least), who are damaging that effort (!). 

It should be like so: in case the Rabbis do not have much of any real
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