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Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic Subject: Re: Is Richard a Liar? Date: Sun, 12 May 2024 08:51:01 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 438 Message-ID: <v1qhg6$2on4q$1@dont-email.me> References: <v18e32$1vbql$1@dont-email.me> <v1d2mi$9f72$11@i2pn2.org> <v1di1h$3b2m5$1@dont-email.me> <v1dtdv$3dqg4$1@dont-email.me> <v1du2i$3dt7u$1@dont-email.me> <v1fetd$3s7jo$1@dont-email.me> <v1ft42$3vdau$2@dont-email.me> <-5Gdnf-nQvstC6b7nZ2dnZfqnPadnZ2d@brightview.co.uk> <v1gid8$4ilc$1@dont-email.me> <v1h9eu$9faf$1@dont-email.me> <v1iqli$nsva$1@dont-email.me> <v1k0ts$iuna$1@i2pn2.org> <v1k381$14mbi$2@dont-email.me> <v1labh$kf53$1@i2pn2.org> <v1lfnq$1e7af$1@dont-email.me> <v1lh1g$kf52$4@i2pn2.org> <v1lmo1$1g1mj$1@dont-email.me> <v1luu1$lbo5$3@i2pn2.org> <v1lvuo$1i47i$1@dont-email.me> <v1m1bf$lbo5$4@i2pn2.org> <v1m2hc$1ijhr$1@dont-email.me> <v1m31m$lbo4$1@i2pn2.org> <v1m4et$1iv85$1@dont-email.me> <v1m5co$lbo4$2@i2pn2.org> <v1m71h$1jnpi$1@dont-email.me> <v1m7mh$lbo5$5@i2pn2.org> <v1mb8f$1kgpl$1@dont-email.me> <v1mkf8$lbo5$7@i2pn2.org> <v1mkmm$1q5ee$1@dont-email.me> <v1na6f$1ugl0$1@dont-email.me> <v1o67n$24f4c$1@dont-email.me> <v1q1ie$2l40t$1@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Sun, 12 May 2024 15:51:03 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="72ecece1a9bec17b694bf422ef8241f0"; logging-data="2907290"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18FJMvlBgNILghpCm+zLRXm" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:3Gs2rRMuLjOr7rFfodfPEnzZea0= In-Reply-To: <v1q1ie$2l40t$1@dont-email.me> Content-Language: en-US Bytes: 22985 On 5/12/2024 4:19 AM, Mikko wrote: > On 2024-05-11 16:26:30 +0000, olcott said: > >> On 5/11/2024 3:27 AM, Mikko wrote: >>> On 2024-05-11 02:21:10 +0000, olcott said: >>> >>>> On 5/10/2024 9:17 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>> On 5/10/24 7:39 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>> On 5/10/2024 5:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>> On 5/10/24 6:28 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>> On 5/10/2024 4:59 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 5/10/24 5:43 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2024 4:19 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/24 5:11 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2024 3:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/24 4:27 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2024 3:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/24 1:49 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2024 11:12 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/24 11:50 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2024 9:18 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/9/24 11:10 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/9/2024 9:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/9/24 11:38 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/8/2024 8:38 PM, immibis wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/05/24 21:05, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/8/2024 10:13 AM, Mike Terry wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/05/2024 14:01, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/8/2024 3:59 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-07 19:05:54 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/7/2024 1:54 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 07.mei.2024 om 17:40 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/7/2024 6:18 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/7/24 3:30 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-06 18:28:37 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/6/2024 11:19 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-05 17:02:25 +0000, olcott >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The x86utm operating system: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/plolcott/x86utm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enables >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one C function to execute another C >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> function in debug step mode. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simulating Termination analyzer H >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulates the x86 machine code of its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input (using libx86emu) in debug step >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mode until it correctly matches a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct non-halting behavior pattern >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> proving that its input will never >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stop running unless aborted. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can D correctly simulated by H >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terminate normally? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 00 int H(ptr x, ptr x) // ptr is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pointer to int function >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 01 int D(ptr x) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 02 { >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 03 int Halt_Status = H(x, x); >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 04 if (Halt_Status) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 05 HERE: goto HERE; >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 06 return Halt_Status; >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 07 } >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 08 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 09 int main() >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10 { >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 11 H(D,D); >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 12 } >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Execution Trace* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Line 11: main() invokes H(D,D); >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *keeps repeating* (unless aborted) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Line 03: simulated D(D) invokes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated H(D,D) that simulates D(D) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Simulation invariant* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> D correctly simulated by H cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly reach past its own line 03. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The above execution trace proves that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (for every H/D pair of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> infinite set of H/D pairs) each D(D) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by the H that this D(D) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calls cannot possibly reach past its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> own line 03. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When you say "every H/D pair" you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should specify which set of pairs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you are talking about. As you don't, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your words don't mean anything. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Every H/D pair in the universe where >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> D(D) is simulated by the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same H(D,D) that D(D) calls. This >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involves 1 to ∞ steps of D >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and also includes zero to ∞ recursive >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulations where H >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H simulates itself simulating D(D). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "In the universe" is not a set. In >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> typical set theories like ZFC there >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is no universal set. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This template defines an infinite set of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finite string H/D pairs where each D(D) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is simulated by H(D,D) also calls >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this same H(D,D). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> These H/D pairs can be enumerated by the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one to ∞ simulated steps of D and involve >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> zero to ∞ recursive simulations of H >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulating itself simulating D(D). Every >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time Lines 1,2,3 are simulated again defines >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one more level of recursive simulation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1st element of H/D pairs 1 step of D is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by H >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2nd element of H/D pairs 2 steps of D are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by H >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3rd element of H/D pairs 3 steps of D are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by H >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4th element of H/D pairs 4 steps of D are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by H >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this begins the first recursive simulation >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at line 01 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5th element of H/D pairs 5 steps of D are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next step of the first recursive >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation at line 02 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6th element of H/D pairs 6 steps of D are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> last step of the first recursive >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation at line 03 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7th element of H/D pairs 7 steps of D are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by H >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this begins the second recursive >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation at line 01 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this the definition of the infinite set >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of H? We can think of many more simulations >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that only these. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This template defines an infinite set of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finite string H/D pairs where >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each D(D) that is simulated by H(D,D) also >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calls this same H(D,D). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No-one can possibly show one element of this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> set where D(D) reaches >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past its own line 03. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If H is a decider of any kind then the D >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> build from it reaches its line >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4 as numberd above. Whether the simulation of ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========