Path: ...!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Is Richard a Liar?
Date: Tue, 14 May 2024 20:30:30 +0200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 136
Message-ID: <v20ak6$an12$1@dont-email.me>
References: <v18e32$1vbql$1@dont-email.me> <v1m4et$1iv85$1@dont-email.me>
 <v1m5co$lbo4$2@i2pn2.org> <v1m71h$1jnpi$1@dont-email.me>
 <v1m7mh$lbo5$5@i2pn2.org> <v1mb8f$1kgpl$1@dont-email.me>
 <v1mkf8$lbo5$7@i2pn2.org> <v1mkmm$1q5ee$1@dont-email.me>
 <v1na6f$1ugl0$1@dont-email.me> <v1o67n$24f4c$1@dont-email.me>
 <v1q1ie$2l40t$1@dont-email.me> <v1q9fp$qb0p$1@i2pn2.org>
 <v1qmq8$2prs6$1@dont-email.me> <v1qouc$2qb2s$1@dont-email.me>
 <v1vbpd$3gbc$1@dont-email.me> <v1vslr$7enr$1@dont-email.me>
 <v1vuor$24b2$1@news.muc.de> <v20027$865j$1@dont-email.me>
 <v200oo$843p$1@dont-email.me> <v200u2$8dd9$1@dont-email.me>
 <v202k0$8q16$1@dont-email.me> <v20654$9o07$1@dont-email.me>
 <v2086v$a4tr$1@dont-email.me> <v208db$a6jn$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 14 May 2024 20:30:31 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="21481b2245c1f7c253e90c6b9fb2953a";
	logging-data="351266"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1//I+aOiT0ftseuYMWdrgYy"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:4AyDECLAAOJA7CW3Vipy0e2STmg=
In-Reply-To: <v208db$a6jn$1@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-GB
Bytes: 7275

Op 14.mei.2024 om 19:52 schreef olcott:
> On 5/14/2024 12:49 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>> Op 14.mei.2024 om 19:14 schreef olcott:
>>> On 5/14/2024 11:13 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>> Op 14.mei.2024 om 17:45 schreef olcott:
>>>>> On 5/14/2024 10:42 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>> Op 14.mei.2024 om 17:30 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>> On 5/14/2024 10:08 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
>>>>>>>> [ Followup-To: set ]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In comp.theory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2024 4:44 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-12 15:58:02 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/12/2024 10:21 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-12 11:34:17 +0000, Richard Damon said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/12/24 5:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-11 16:26:30 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am working on providing an academic quality definition 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> term.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The definition in Wikipedia is good enough.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think he means, he is working on a definition that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> redefines the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> field to allow him to claim what he wants.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Here one can claim whatever one wants anysay.
>>>>>>>>>>>> In if one wants to present ones claims on some significant 
>>>>>>>>>>>> forum then
>>>>>>>>>>>> it is better to stick to usual definitions as much as possible.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sort of like his new definition of H as an "unconventional" 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some how both returns an answer but also keeps on 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> running.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There are systems where that is possible but unsolvable 
>>>>>>>>>>>> problems are
>>>>>>>>>>>> unsolvable even in those systems.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> When Ĥ is applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This notation does not work with machines that can, or have parts
>>>>>>>>>> that can, return a value without (or before) termination.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 00 int H(ptr x, ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to int function
>>>>>>>>> 01 int D(ptr x)
>>>>>>>>> 02 {
>>>>>>>>> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>>>>>>> 04   if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>> 05     HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>> 06   return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>> 07 }
>>>>>>>>> 08
>>>>>>>>> 09 int main()
>>>>>>>>> 10 {
>>>>>>>>> 11   H(D,D);
>>>>>>>>> 12 }
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In any case you diverged away form the whole point of this thread.
>>>>>>>>> Richard is wrong when he says that there exists an H/D pair such
>>>>>>>>> that D simulated by H ever reaches past its own line 03.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, in the same way that you are wrong.  The above "C code" is 
>>>>>>>> garbage;
>>>>>>>> as already pointed out, it doesn't even compile.  So any talk of
>>>>>>>> "reaching line 3" or "matching" that "code" is vacuous nonsense.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any H/D pair matching the above template where D(D) is simulated
>>>>>>> by the same H(D,D) that it calls cannot possibly reach past its own
>>>>>>> line 03. Simple software engineering verified fact.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since nobody knows who has verified this fact en there have been 
>>>>>> counter examples, 
>>>>>
>>>>> *See if you can show that your claim of counter-examples is not a lie*
>>>>> *See if you can show that your claim of counter-examples is not a lie*
>>>>> *See if you can show that your claim of counter-examples is not a lie*
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> *YOU SKIPPED THE CHALLENGE TO YOUR ASSERTION*
>>> IS THAT BECAUSE YOU KNOW IT IS FALSE?
>>>
>>> *YOU SKIPPED THE CHALLENGE TO YOUR ASSERTION*
>>> IS THAT BECAUSE YOU KNOW IT IS FALSE?
>>>
>>> *YOU SKIPPED THE CHALLENGE TO YOUR ASSERTION*
>>> IS THAT BECAUSE YOU KNOW IT IS FALSE?
>>>
>>>> Olcott is trying to stay at this point for several weeks now, but he 
>>>> does not succeed. The reason probably is, that it is already a few 
>>>> steps too far. First there must be agreement about the words and 
>>>> terms used in what he says. So, we should delay this subject and go 
>>>> back a few steps.
>>>> Before we can talk about this, first there must be 100% agreement 
>>>> about:
>>>>
>>>> 1) What is a "verified fact"? Who needs to do the verification 
>>>> before it can be said that it is a verified fact?
>>>
>>> I am ONLY referring to expressions that are PROVEN
>>> to be {true entirely on the basis of their meaning}.
>>>
>>> *CONCRETE EXAMPLES*
>>> How do we know that 2 + 3 = 5?
>>
>> If needed we can write out the proof for this, starting from the 
>> axioms for natural numbers. That proof is well known.
>>
>> But nobody here knows the proof for your assertion above, that it is a 
>> verified fact that it cannot reach past line 03. So, we would like to 
>> see that proof. Just the claim that it has been proven is not enough.
>>
> 
> The "nobody here" you are referring to must be clueless
> about the semantics of the C programming language.
> 

Are you honest? Please, give the proof, instead of keeping away from it. 
You give the impression that you are clueless about how to prove it. The 
only evidence you gave, are the personal attacks to people who ask for 
it, which does not convince anybody.
It is your claim. You have the burden of the proof.
We need to be 100% sure before we can proceed to the next step.