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From: Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Is Richard a Liar?
Date: Wed, 15 May 2024 11:21:30 +0300
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On 2024-05-14 19:42:08 +0000, olcott said:

> On 5/14/2024 2:36 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>> Op 14.mei.2024 om 20:40 schreef olcott:
>>> On 5/14/2024 1:30 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>> Op 14.mei.2024 om 19:52 schreef olcott:
>>>>> On 5/14/2024 12:49 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>> Op 14.mei.2024 om 19:14 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>> On 5/14/2024 11:13 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>> Op 14.mei.2024 om 17:45 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2024 10:42 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Op 14.mei.2024 om 17:30 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2024 10:08 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> [ Followup-To: set ]
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> In comp.theory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2024 4:44 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-12 15:58:02 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/12/2024 10:21 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-12 11:34:17 +0000, Richard Damon said:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/12/24 5:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-11 16:26:30 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am working on providing an academic quality definition of this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> term.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The definition in Wikipedia is good enough.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think he means, he is working on a definition that redefines the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> field to allow him to claim what he wants.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here one can claim whatever one wants anysay.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In if one wants to present ones claims on some significant forum then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is better to stick to usual definitions as much as possible.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sort of like his new definition of H as an "unconventional" machine
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some how both returns an answer but also keeps on running.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are systems where that is possible but unsolvable problems are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unsolvable even in those systems.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When Ĥ is applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This notation does not work with machines that can, or have parts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that can, return a value without (or before) termination.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 00 int H(ptr x, ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to int function
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 01 int D(ptr x)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 02 {
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 04   if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 05     HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 06   return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 07 }
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 08
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 09 int main()
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10 {
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 11   H(D,D);
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 12 }
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In any case you diverged away form the whole point of this thread.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard is wrong when he says that there exists an H/D pair such
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that D simulated by H ever reaches past its own line 03.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, in the same way that you are wrong.  The above "C code" is garbage;
>>>>>>>>>>>> as already pointed out, it doesn't even compile.  So any talk of
>>>>>>>>>>>> "reaching line 3" or "matching" that "code" is vacuous nonsense.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Any H/D pair matching the above template where D(D) is simulated
>>>>>>>>>>> by the same H(D,D) that it calls cannot possibly reach past its own
>>>>>>>>>>> line 03. Simple software engineering verified fact.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Since nobody knows who has verified this fact en there have been 
>>>>>>>>>> counter examples,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> *See if you can show that your claim of counter-examples is not a lie*
>>>>>>>>> *See if you can show that your claim of counter-examples is not a lie*
>>>>>>>>> *See if you can show that your claim of counter-examples is not a lie*
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> *YOU SKIPPED THE CHALLENGE TO YOUR ASSERTION*
>>>>>>> IS THAT BECAUSE YOU KNOW IT IS FALSE?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> *YOU SKIPPED THE CHALLENGE TO YOUR ASSERTION*
>>>>>>> IS THAT BECAUSE YOU KNOW IT IS FALSE?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> *YOU SKIPPED THE CHALLENGE TO YOUR ASSERTION*
>>>>>>> IS THAT BECAUSE YOU KNOW IT IS FALSE?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Olcott is trying to stay at this point for several weeks now, but he 
>>>>>>>> does not succeed. The reason probably is, that it is already a few 
>>>>>>>> steps too far. First there must be agreement about the words and terms 
>>>>>>>> used in what he says. So, we should delay this subject and go back a 
>>>>>>>> few steps.
>>>>>>>> Before we can talk about this, first there must be 100% agreement about:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 1) What is a "verified fact"? Who needs to do the verification before 
>>>>>>>> it can be said that it is a verified fact?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I am ONLY referring to expressions that are PROVEN
>>>>>>> to be {true entirely on the basis of their meaning}.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> *CONCRETE EXAMPLES*
>>>>>>> How do we know that 2 + 3 = 5?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If needed we can write out the proof for this, starting from the axioms 
>>>>>> for natural numbers. That proof is well known.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But nobody here knows the proof for your assertion above, that it is a 
>>>>>> verified fact that it cannot reach past line 03. So, we would like to 
>>>>>> see that proof. Just the claim that it has been proven is not enough.
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> The "nobody here" you are referring to must be clueless
>>>>> about the semantics of the C programming language.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Are you honest? Please, give the proof, instead of keeping away from it.
>>> 
>>> I have been an expert C/C++ programmer for decades.
>>> If you knew C will enough yourself you would comprehend
>>> that my claim about:
>>> 
>>> Any H/D pair matching the above template where
>>> D(D) is simulated by the same H(D,D) that it calls
>>> cannot possibly reach past its own line 03.
>>> This is a simple software engineering verified fact.
>>> 
>>> My grandfather was a diagnostician and pathologist
>>> said: "You can't argue with ignorance".
>> 
>> Again no trace of a proof. Only your authority and personal attacks 
>> about lack of knowledge and ignorance. So, the text below still stands:
>> 
> 
> *The only sufficient proof is being an expert in C yourself*

I know what a proof is and I know what C is so I know that that is false.

-- 
Mikko