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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Is Richard a Liar?
Date: Wed, 15 May 2024 11:56:45 -0500
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On 5/15/2024 9:50 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
> Op 15.mei.2024 om 16:02 schreef olcott:
>> On 5/15/2024 1:21 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>> Op 14.mei.2024 om 22:13 schreef olcott:
>>>> On 5/14/2024 3:05 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>> Op 14.mei.2024 om 21:42 schreef olcott:
>>>>>> On 5/14/2024 2:36 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>> Op 14.mei.2024 om 20:40 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2024 1:30 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Op 14.mei.2024 om 19:52 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2024 12:49 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Op 14.mei.2024 om 19:14 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2024 11:13 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 14.mei.2024 om 17:45 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2024 10:42 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 14.mei.2024 om 17:30 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2024 10:08 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [ Followup-To: set ]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In comp.theory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2024 4:44 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-12 15:58:02 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/12/2024 10:21 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-12 11:34:17 +0000, Richard Damon said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/12/24 5:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-11 16:26:30 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am working on providing an academic quality 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition of this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> term.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The definition in Wikipedia is good enough.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think he means, he is working on a definition 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that redefines the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> field to allow him to claim what he wants.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here one can claim whatever one wants anysay.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In if one wants to present ones claims on some 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> significant forum then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is better to stick to usual definitions as much 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as possible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sort of like his new definition of H as an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "unconventional" machine
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some how both returns an answer but also 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keeps on running.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are systems where that is possible but 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unsolvable problems are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unsolvable even in those systems.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When Ĥ is applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This notation does not work with machines that can, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or have parts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that can, return a value without (or before) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> termination.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 00 int H(ptr x, ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to int function
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 01 int D(ptr x)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 02 {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 04   if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 05     HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 06   return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 07 }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 08
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 09 int main()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10 {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 11   H(D,D);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 12 }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In any case you diverged away form the whole point of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this thread.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard is wrong when he says that there exists an H/D 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pair such
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that D simulated by H ever reaches past its own line 03.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, in the same way that you are wrong.  The above "C 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> code" is garbage;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as already pointed out, it doesn't even compile.  So 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any talk of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "reaching line 3" or "matching" that "code" is vacuous 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nonsense.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any H/D pair matching the above template where D(D) is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by the same H(D,D) that it calls cannot possibly reach 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past its own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line 03. Simple software engineering verified fact.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since nobody knows who has verified this fact en there 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have been counter examples, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *See if you can show that your claim of counter-examples 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not a lie*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *See if you can show that your claim of counter-examples 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not a lie*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *See if you can show that your claim of counter-examples 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not a lie*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *YOU SKIPPED THE CHALLENGE TO YOUR ASSERTION*
>>>>>>>>>>>> IS THAT BECAUSE YOU KNOW IT IS FALSE?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *YOU SKIPPED THE CHALLENGE TO YOUR ASSERTION*
>>>>>>>>>>>> IS THAT BECAUSE YOU KNOW IT IS FALSE?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *YOU SKIPPED THE CHALLENGE TO YOUR ASSERTION*
>>>>>>>>>>>> IS THAT BECAUSE YOU KNOW IT IS FALSE?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Olcott is trying to stay at this point for several weeks 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> now, but he does not succeed. The reason probably is, that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is already a few steps too far. First there must be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> agreement about the words and terms used in what he says. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, we should delay this subject and go back a few steps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before we can talk about this, first there must be 100% 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> agreement about:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) What is a "verified fact"? Who needs to do the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> verification before it can be said that it is a verified fact?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am ONLY referring to expressions that are PROVEN
>>>>>>>>>>>> to be {true entirely on the basis of their meaning}.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *CONCRETE EXAMPLES*
>>>>>>>>>>>> How do we know that 2 + 3 = 5?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If needed we can write out the proof for this, starting from 
>>>>>>>>>>> the axioms for natural numbers. That proof is well known.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But nobody here knows the proof for your assertion above, 
>>>>>>>>>>> that it is a verified fact that it cannot reach past line 03. 
>>>>>>>>>>> So, we would like to see that proof. Just the claim that it 
>>>>>>>>>>> has been proven is not enough.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The "nobody here" you are referring to must be clueless
>>>>>>>>>> about the semantics of the C programming language.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Are you honest? Please, give the proof, instead of keeping away 
>>>>>>>>> from it. 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have been an expert C/C++ programmer for decades.
>>>>>>>> If you knew C will enough yourself you would comprehend
>>>>>>>> that my claim about:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Any H/D pair matching the above template where
>>>>>>>> D(D) is simulated by the same H(D,D) that it calls
>>>>>>>> cannot possibly reach past its own line 03.
>>>>>>>> This is a simple software engineering verified fact.
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