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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: sci.logic,comp.theory
Subject: Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic
 method
Date: Wed, 15 May 2024 22:33:11 -0500
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On 5/15/2024 9:33 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 5/15/24 10:17 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/15/2024 9:07 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 5/15/24 9:57 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/13/2024 9:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 5/13/24 10:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Remember, p defined as ~True(L, p) is BY DEFINITION a truth 
>>>>>>> bearer, as True must return a Truth Value for all inputs, and ~ a 
>>>>>>> truth valus is always the other truth value.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can a sequence of true preserving operations applied to expressions
>>>>>> that are stipulated to be true derive p? 
>>>>
>>>> On 5/15/2024 8:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>  > Which has NOTHING to do with the problem with True(L, p)
>>>>  > being true when p is defined in L as ~True(L, p)
>>>>
>>>> *YOU ALREADY AGREED THAT True(L, p) IS FALSE*
>>>
>>> No, I said that because there is not path to p, it would need to be 
>>> false, but that was based on the assumption that it could exist.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, so True(L, p) is false
>>>>> and thus ~True(L, p) is true.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can a sequence of true preserving operations applied to expressions
>>>>>> that are stipulated to be true derive ~p?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 5/15/2024 7:52 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>  > Which has NOTHING to do with the above,
>>>>  > as we never refered to False(L,p).
>>>>
>>>> *YOU ALREADY AGREED THAT false(L, p) IS FALSE*
>>>
>>> Right, but that has nothing to do with the problem with True(L, p) 
>>> being false, because, since p in L is ~True(L, p) so that make 
>>> True(L, ~false) which is True(L, true) false, which is incorrrect.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, so False(L, p) is false,
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Please try and keep these two thoughts together at the same time
>>>> *I need to make another point that depends on both of them*
>>>>
>>>> *YOU ALREADY AGREED THAT True(L, p) IS FALSE*
>>>> *YOU ALREADY AGREED THAT false(L, p) IS FALSE*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> right, by your definitions, True(L, p) is False, but that means that 
>>> True(L, true) is false, so your system is broken.
>>>
>>
>> You understand that True(English, "a fish") is false
>> and you understand that False(English, "a fish") is false
>> and you understand this means that "a fish" is neither True
>> nor false in English.
>>
>> You understand that the actual Liar Paradox is neither true
>> nor false *THIS IS MUCH MUCH BETTER THAN MOST PEOPLE: Good Job*
>>
>>   True(English, "This sentence is not true") is false
>> False(English, "This sentence is not true") is false
>> Is saying the same thing that you already know.
>>
>> You get stuck when we formalize: "This sentence is not true"
>> as "p defined as ~True(L, p)", yet the formalized sentence has
>> the exact same semantics as the English one.
>>
> 
> No, YOU get stuck when you can't figure out how to make True(L, p) with 
> p defined in L as ~True(L, p) work.

*You got overwhelmed with that so we have to break it down to*
*smaller steps to see exactly where our mutual agreement diverged*

Do you understand and agree with this?
    True(English, "This sentence is not true") is false
    False(English, "This sentence is not true") is false
    *Is saying the same thing that you already agreed to*

-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer