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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: sci.logic,comp.theory
Subject: Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic
 method
Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 21:44:14 -0500
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On 5/16/2024 9:29 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 5/16/24 9:59 AM, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/16/2024 6:32 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 5/16/24 12:44 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/15/2024 9:33 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 5/15/24 10:17 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/15/2024 9:07 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/15/24 9:57 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/13/2024 9:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/13/24 10:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Remember, p defined as ~True(L, p) is BY DEFINITION a truth 
>>>>>>>>>>> bearer, as True must return a Truth Value for all inputs, and 
>>>>>>>>>>> ~ a truth valus is always the other truth value.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Can a sequence of true preserving operations applied to 
>>>>>>>>>> expressions
>>>>>>>>>> that are stipulated to be true derive p? 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/15/2024 8:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>  > Which has NOTHING to do with the problem with True(L, p)
>>>>>>>>  > being true when p is defined in L as ~True(L, p)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *YOU ALREADY AGREED THAT True(L, p) IS FALSE*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, I said that because there is not path to p, it would need to 
>>>>>>> be false, but that was based on the assumption that it could exist.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, so True(L, p) is false
>>>>>>>>> and thus ~True(L, p) is true.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Can a sequence of true preserving operations applied to 
>>>>>>>>>> expressions
>>>>>>>>>> that are stipulated to be true derive ~p?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/15/2024 7:52 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>  > Which has NOTHING to do with the above,
>>>>>>>>  > as we never refered to False(L,p).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *YOU ALREADY AGREED THAT false(L, p) IS FALSE*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Right, but that has nothing to do with the problem with True(L, 
>>>>>>> p) being false, because, since p in L is ~True(L, p) so that make 
>>>>>>> True(L, ~false) which is True(L, true) false, which is incorrrect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, so False(L, p) is false,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please try and keep these two thoughts together at the same time
>>>>>>>> *I need to make another point that depends on both of them*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *YOU ALREADY AGREED THAT True(L, p) IS FALSE*
>>>>>>>> *YOU ALREADY AGREED THAT false(L, p) IS FALSE*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> right, by your definitions, True(L, p) is False, but that means 
>>>>>>> that True(L, true) is false, so your system is broken.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You understand that True(English, "a fish") is false
>>>>>> and you understand that False(English, "a fish") is false
>>>>>> and you understand this means that "a fish" is neither True
>>>>>> nor false in English.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You understand that the actual Liar Paradox is neither true
>>>>>> nor false *THIS IS MUCH MUCH BETTER THAN MOST PEOPLE: Good Job*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   True(English, "This sentence is not true") is false
>>>>>> False(English, "This sentence is not true") is false
>>>>>> Is saying the same thing that you already know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You get stuck when we formalize: "This sentence is not true"
>>>>>> as "p defined as ~True(L, p)", yet the formalized sentence has
>>>>>> the exact same semantics as the English one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, YOU get stuck when you can't figure out how to make True(L, p) 
>>>>> with p defined in L as ~True(L, p) work. If it IS false, then the 
>>>>> resulting comclusion is that True(L, true) is false, whicn means 
>>>>> your system is broken.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   True(L, true) is false
>>>> False(L, true) is false
>>>>
>>>> This is the Truth Teller Paradox
>>>> and is rejected as not a truth bearer.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No True(L, true) must be TRUE by definiition. 
>>
>> We could say that "kittens are fifteen story office buildings"
>> is true by definition and we would be wrong.
> 
> But the fundamental definition of true makes it true.

*True by definition must actually be true*
*True by definition must actually be true*
*True by definition must actually be true*

>>
>> "True(L, true)" lacks a truth object that it is true about.
>> A sentence cannot correctly be true about being true...
>> It has to be true about something other than itself.
> 
> true IS the fundamental truth object.
> 

*No it is not, it is the result of this algorithm*
*No it is not, it is the result of this algorithm*
*No it is not, it is the result of this algorithm*

*The grounding of a truth-bearer to its truthmaker*
True(L,x) returns true when x is derived from a set of truth preserving 
operations from finite string expressions of language that have been 
stipulated to have the semantic value of Boolean true. False(L,x) is 
defined as True(L,~x).   Copyright 2022 PL Olcott

> It isn't a "sentence" it is a truth value.
> 
> You are just showing you don't actually understand how logic works.
> 
>>
>> "This sentence has five words."
>> Is true about the number of words that it has.
>> True(English, "This sentence has five words.") is true
>>
>> "a sentence may fail to make a statement if it is
>> paradoxical or ungrounded."
> 
> 
> So, you thing truth is just paradoxical or ungrounded?
> 

That is how Kripke defined not a truth-bearer.
I specified what grounding means above and previously.

*Outline of a Theory of Truth --- Saul Kripke*
https://www.impan.pl/~kz/truthseminar/Kripke_Outline.pdf



-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer