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Path: ...!weretis.net!feeder9.news.weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: Is Richard a Liar? Date: Fri, 17 May 2024 12:28:14 +0300 Organization: - Lines: 109 Message-ID: <v277ve$24e3g$1@dont-email.me> References: <v18e32$1vbql$1@dont-email.me> <v1h9eu$9faf$1@dont-email.me> <v1iqli$nsva$1@dont-email.me> <v1k0ts$iuna$1@i2pn2.org> <v1k381$14mbi$2@dont-email.me> <v1labh$kf53$1@i2pn2.org> <v1lfnq$1e7af$1@dont-email.me> <v1lh1g$kf52$4@i2pn2.org> <v1lmo1$1g1mj$1@dont-email.me> <v1luu1$lbo5$3@i2pn2.org> <v1lvuo$1i47i$1@dont-email.me> <v1m1bf$lbo5$4@i2pn2.org> <v1m2hc$1ijhr$1@dont-email.me> <v1m31m$lbo4$1@i2pn2.org> <v1m4et$1iv85$1@dont-email.me> <v1m5co$lbo4$2@i2pn2.org> <v1m71h$1jnpi$1@dont-email.me> <v1m7mh$lbo5$5@i2pn2.org> <v1mb8f$1kgpl$1@dont-email.me> <v1mkf8$lbo5$7@i2pn2.org> <v1mkmm$1q5ee$1@dont-email.me> <v1na6f$1ugl0$1@dont-email.me> <v1o67n$24f4c$1@dont-email.me> <v1q1ie$2l40t$1@dont-email.me> <v1q9fp$qb0p$1@i2pn2.org> <v1qmq8$2prs6$1@dont-email.me> <v1qouc$2qb2s$1@dont-email.me> <v1vbpd$3gbc$1@dont-email.me> <v1vs0m$7577$4@dont-email.me> <v21qac$oojb$1@dont-email.me> <v22irp$u8vi$2@dont-email.me> <v24mcu$1gm7h$1@dont-email.me> <v255o9$1k6kv$1@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Fri, 17 May 2024 11:28:15 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="dbf1b225f2871bff3da7815f4eb7b472"; logging-data="2242672"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19JPV9t8/UjImOgNPsWag3o" User-Agent: Unison/2.2 Cancel-Lock: sha1:jat9YEzBvbkJBCxDwCmX1HVGXso= Bytes: 6124 On 2024-05-16 14:37:59 +0000, olcott said: > On 5/16/2024 5:15 AM, Mikko wrote: >> On 2024-05-15 15:03:20 +0000, olcott said: >> >>> On 5/15/2024 3:04 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>> On 2024-05-14 14:21:10 +0000, olcott said: >>>> >>>>> On 5/14/2024 4:44 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>> On 2024-05-12 15:58:02 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/12/2024 10:21 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>> On 2024-05-12 11:34:17 +0000, Richard Damon said: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/12/24 5:19 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-11 16:26:30 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I am working on providing an academic quality definition of this >>>>>>>>>>> term. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The definition in Wikipedia is good enough. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think he means, he is working on a definition that redefines the >>>>>>>>> field to allow him to claim what he wants. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Here one can claim whatever one wants anysay. >>>>>>>> In if one wants to present ones claims on some significant forum then >>>>>>>> it is better to stick to usual definitions as much as possible. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sort of like his new definition of H as an "unconventional" machine >>>>>>>>> that some how both returns an answer but also keeps on running. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are systems where that is possible but unsolvable problems are >>>>>>>> unsolvable even in those systems. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When Ĥ is applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ >>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞ >>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn >>>>>> >>>>>> This notation does not work with machines that can, or have parts >>>>>> that can, return a value without (or before) termination. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ⊢* specifies a wildcard set of state transitions that could >>>>> include a transition to a non-final state embedded_H.qn. >>>> >>>> The term "wildcard" is usually not used in this context. And the word >>>> "set" is not sufficiently specific, so "sequence" should be used instead. >>>> >>> >>> Yes that is better. >>> ⊢* specifies a wildcard sequence of state transitions >> >> That still has the problem that "wildcard" has no well known meaning >> that could be applicable in that context. >> >>> *Here is how Linz says it* >>> The Linz term “move” means a state transition and its corresponding >>> tape head action {move_left, move_right, read, write}. >>> ⊢* indicates an arbitrary number of moves. >> >> I.e., a sequence of moves. >> > > Not as easy for software engineers. > Wildcard as * was one of the first things that I learned. > It is well known in the field of regular expressions. In the usual language of regular expressions the wildcard metacharecter is point "." and the metacaracters "*", "+" denote repetition, "+" at least once. That a "wildcard" is a well known word is one of the reasons why the term should not be used when the same meaning is not applicable. Another reason is that one should never use a word where it does not affect the meaning of the containing expression. As "⊢*" means 'a sequence of moves' you shold not use more words to express its meaning. Yeat another reason is that when one borrows a notation one should also borrow the terms used in discussion of the notation unles they conflict with terms borrowed from elsewhere. >>>> Anyway, the language cannot handle a situation where one part of a >>>> machine gives its result to another parts and then both continue their >>>> execution. >>> >>> The language of Turing machine descriptions certainly can handle >>> TM's that do not halt. It can also handle transitioning through >>> a specific state to another state. >> >> Yes, but a machine were one part of a machine gives its result to >> aonter part and then both continue their exection is not a Truing >> machine. > > Sure it is. A Turing machine that transitions through a specific state > and never stops running IS A TURING MACHINE. No, it is not. A machine where several parts are executed at the same time is not a Turing machine. If a part of a Turing machine never stops it execution it perevents all execution of other parts. -- Mikko