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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ###
Date: Fri, 17 May 2024 12:14:01 -0500
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On 5/17/2024 5:53 AM, Mikko wrote:
> On 2024-05-16 14:50:19 +0000, olcott said:
> 
>> On 5/16/2024 5:48 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>> On 2024-05-15 15:24:57 +0000, olcott said:
>>>
>>>> On 5/15/2024 3:18 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-05-14 14:35:42 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/14/2024 4:52 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2024-05-13 14:43:09 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/13/2024 4:14 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-13 04:54:30 +0000, immibis said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 10/05/24 19:55, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> [ Followup-To: set ]
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In comp.theory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> [ .... ]
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I've tried out your much spammed code on GCC (see below).  It 
>>>>>>>>>>> is clear
>>>>>>>>>>> you have never built or run this code, which ironically can't 
>>>>>>>>>>> reach Line
>>>>>>>>>>> 06.  It can't even reach line 00.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard tried to get away with D never simulated by H as an 
>>>>>>>>>>>> example
>>>>>>>>>>>> of D simulated by H:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: <v0ummt$2qov3$2@i2pn2.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/1/2024 7:28 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *That people say they know I am wrong yet will not show the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> detailed*
>>>>>>>>>>>> *steps of how I am wrong indicates that they are probably 
>>>>>>>>>>>> liars*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You have said, or at least implied that your code fragment is 
>>>>>>>>>>> runnable.
>>>>>>>>>>> I think you are the liar, here.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 00 int H(ptr x, ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to int function
>>>>>>>>>>>> 01 int D(ptr x)
>>>>>>>>>>>> 02 {
>>>>>>>>>>>> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>>>>>>>>>> 04   if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>>>>> 05     HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>>>>> 06   return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>>>>> 07 }
>>>>>>>>>>>> 08
>>>>>>>>>>>> 09 int main()
>>>>>>>>>>>> 10 {
>>>>>>>>>>>> 11   H(D,D);
>>>>>>>>>>>> 12 }
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> .  These are the diagnostics generated by GCC:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And the halting problem is about Turing machines, anyway.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not necessarily. The same question can be asked about different 
>>>>>>>>> machines.
>>>>>>>>> The restriction to Turing machines is just one way to ensure 
>>>>>>>>> that the
>>>>>>>>> problem is well defined.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well put. All computable functions even if written in C.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You still must ensure that the problem is well defined. With C 
>>>>>>> there is
>>>>>>> the problem that conforming C programs often fail to be strictly 
>>>>>>> conforming.
>>>>>>> If a program is not strictly conforming it may be interpreted as 
>>>>>>> halting
>>>>>>> by some implementation and non-halting or incorrect by another.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 00 int H(ptr x, ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to int function
>>>>>> 01 int D(ptr x)
>>>>>> 02 {
>>>>>> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>>>> 04   if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>> 05     HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>> 06   return Halt_Status;
>>>>>> 07 }
>>>>>> 08
>>>>>> 09 int main()
>>>>>> 10 {
>>>>>> 11   H(D,D);
>>>>>> 12 }
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One can correctly determine that every D simulated by H
>>>>>> never reaches past its own line 03.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is not strictly conforming and hardly conforming at all.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What trivial syntactic error that has no effect
>>>> what-so-ever on the semantics do you believe remains?
>>>
>>> A trivial sysntactic error means that the program is not strictly
>>> conforming. It may be conforming if some liberal compiler accepts
>>> it.
>>>
>>>> A missing semi-colon?
>>>
>>> Normal semantics is that the program is not executed.
>>>
>>>> typedef int (*ptr)();  // ptr is pointer to int function
>>>> 00 int H(ptr x, ptr x);
>>>> 01 int D(ptr x)
>>>> 02 {
>>>> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>> 04   if (Halt_Status)
>>>> 05     HERE: goto HERE;
>>>> 06   return Halt_Status;
>>>> 07 }
>>>> 08
>>>> 09 int main()
>>>> 10 {
>>>> 11   H(D,D);
>>>> 12   return 0;
>>>> 13 }
>>>
>>> Can you find any compiler that is liberal enough to accept that?
>>>
>>
>> It has been fully operational code under Windows and
>> Linux for two years.
> 
> If your compiler does not reject that program it is not a conforming
> C compiler. The semantics according to C standard is that a diagnostic
> message must be given. The standard does not specify what happens if
> you execute that program anyway.
> 

It is not nit picky syntax that is the issue here.
The SEMANTICS OF THE C PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE SPECIFIES

No D simulated correctly by any H of every H/D pair specified
by the above template ever reaches its own line 06 and halts.

Fully operational software that runs under Widows and Linux
proves that the above is true EMPIRICALLY.

-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer