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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Is Richard a Liar?
Date: Sat, 18 May 2024 10:34:58 -0500
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On 5/18/2024 5:43 AM, joes wrote:
> Am Fri, 17 May 2024 14:34:58 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>> On 5/17/2024 2:02 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>> Op 17.mei.2024 om 19:18 schreef olcott:
>>>> On 5/17/2024 11:24 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>> Op 17.mei.2024 om 17:31 schreef olcott:
>>>>>> On 5/17/2024 2:41 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>> Op 16.mei.2024 om 21:32 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>> On 5/16/2024 1:55 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Op 16.mei.2024 om 18:04 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/16/2024 10:12 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Op 16.mei.2024 om 16:54 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/16/2024 5:36 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 15.mei.2024 om 22:10 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/15/2024 2:13 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 15.mei.2024 om 20:39 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/15/2024 1:19 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 15.mei.2024 om 18:27 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/15/2024 9:50 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 15.mei.2024 om 16:02 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/15/2024 1:21 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 14.mei.2024 om 22:13 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2024 3:05 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 14.mei.2024 om 21:42 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2024 2:36 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 14.mei.2024 om 20:40 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2024 1:30 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 14.mei.2024 om 19:52 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2024 12:49 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 14.mei.2024 om 19:14 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2024 11:13 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 14.mei.2024 om 17:45 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2024 10:42 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 14.mei.2024 om 17:30 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2024 10:08 AM, Alan Mackenzie
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In comp.theory olcott
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2024 4:44 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-12 15:58:02 +0000, olcott
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/12/2024 10:21 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-12 11:34:17 +0000,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard Damon said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/12/24 5:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-11 16:26:30 +0000,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott said:
> [kept for beauty]
> 
>>>> The you want me to prove something to you in a language that you do not
>>>> sufficiently understand is an unreasonable request. I have improved the
>>>> words of my proof and put in some more details.
> Unreasonable is requesting a review, nay, a commitment to correctness.
> 
> [copypasta]
>>> Again no proof. But it seems that olcott is slowly starting to
>>> understand that it is not self-evident, because he now shows a small
>>> beginning of an attempt for a proof. It is a pity for him that he
>>> ignored the rest of my post where I told him a brief outline for a proof.
>>> What we still miss are the requirements for H.
>> I try to do the best that I can to write my words so that even people
>> with attention deficit disorder (ADD) can understand them.
> No need to stigmatise.
> 
>>> A working example is not
>>> enough to define an infinite set of H. So, define the requirements.
>> I did and always have. Possibly not well enough for people having
>> ADD that can hardly pay any attention. Not well enough for people
>> having insufficient knowledge of the semantics of C.
> Where is the code for H?
> 
>>> Then, do not only claim that there is a simulation invariant, but prove
>>> it.
>> Prove that 2 + 3 = 5 to someone that does not know what numbers are.
>> No need for any proof for people that understand arithmetic.
> Then what are you doing here?
> 
>>> Of course you need to master a language to express such a proof. If
>>> you don't master such a language, try to learn it. Claiming, without
>>> evidence, that it is self-evident is not part of the correct language.
>> If you have ADD and can't pay attention or do not know the semantics
>> of C well enough to understand that I have proved my point I don't
>> know what I can do to help you understand that what I have said has
>> always been self-evidently true for everyone having sufficient
>> knowledge of the semantics of C.
>>
>> Tell me which part you don't understand and I might be able to help.
>> If you have no idea what infinite recursion is then I cannot help.
> 
> 
>>> Then explain how H determines that there is a recursive simulation, so
>>> that it can abort the simulation.
>> *That is not any part of what I claimed above*
>> *You must pay 100% complete attention to my exact words*
>> If you don't have that much attention span, I can't help.

> You claim that H is a simulator and a decider.
> 

typedef int (*ptr)();  // ptr is pointer to int function
00 int H(ptr x, ptr y);
01 int D(ptr x)
02 {
03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
04   if (Halt_Status)
05     HERE: goto HERE;
06   return Halt_Status;
07 }
08
09 int main()
10 {
11   H(D,D);
12   return 0;
13 }

In the above case a simulator is an x86 emulator that correctly emulates
at least one of the x86 instructions of D in the order specified by the
x86 instructions of D.

This may include correctly emulating the x86 instructions of H in the
order specified by the x86 instructions of H thus calling H(D,D) in
recursive simulation.

Execution Trace
Line 11: main() invokes H(D,D);

keeps repeating (unless aborted)
Line 01:
Line 02:
Line 03: simulated D(D) invokes simulated H(D,D) that simulates D(D)

Simulation invariant:
D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03.

The key thing to note is that no D correctly simulated by any H of every
H/D pair specified by the above template ever reaches its own line 06
and halts.

*UNTIL MUTUAL AGREEMENT IS ACHIEVED ON THE LAST LINE*
*NO ADDITIONAL STEPS OF MY PROOF CAN POSSIBLY BE UNDERSTOOD*
*THE ABOVE H IS ONLY KNOWN TO BE A SIMULATOR*

-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer