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From: "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: smart people doing stupid things
Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 23:51:05 -0400
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"Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message 
news:v2ee06$3ppfi$2@dont-email.me...
> On 5/19/2024 9:22 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
>>>>> Exactly.  But, you can pose questions of them and otherwise observe
>>>>> their
>>>>> behaviors in unrelated areas and form an opinion.
>>>>
>>>> If they are, say, a doctor then yes you can ask questions about your
>>>> treatment but you can't otherwise observe their behavior.
>>>
>>> I watch the amount of time my MD gives me above and beyond the "15 
>>> minute
>>> slot"
>>> that his office would PREFER to constrain him.  I watch my dentist 
>>> respond
>>> to
>>> calls to his PERSONAL cell phone WHILE OUT OF TOWN.  I see the bicycle
>>> that
>>> SWMBO's MD rides to work each day.
>>
>> You must annoy a lot of people.
>
> It's up to my doctor to terminate the appointment if it exceeds the amount
> of time he wants to spend with me (us).  Instead, he seems to delight in 
> the
> questions that I pose and my interest in learning instead of being *told*
> to do X, Y or Z.
>
> And, the fact that he sees me investing in my own care -- instead of 
> making
> excuses about why I can't do this or that -- as evidence that his 
> investment
> in *me* is likely more effective (if you assume he chose to be a doctor
> for a REASON!) than spending more than *10* minutes with someone who is
> going to ignore his recommendations.
>>> These people aren't highlighting these aspects of their behavior.  But,
>>> they aren't hiding them, either.  Anyone observant would "notice".
>>
>> Anyone getting on with their own life wouldn't care.
>
> And would suffer from less *effective* "service".  A neighbor has a
> doctor who sees every problem as requiring a "pill" as a solution.
> When they travel, they carry a LARGE briefcase just full of their
> medications!
>
> Ask some impartial doctor if all of those were strictly necessary (as
> they have been individually prescribed, over the years) and I suspect
> he would question many of them as ineffective, redundant or 
> contraindicated.
>
> A friend spent a few weeks in the hospital, recently.  When he came out,
> the "suite" of medications that were prescribed for him had many of his
> previous medications elided.  "You don't need these."  So, why didn't his
> "regular doctor" ever sit down and review that list?  He has it in
> his computerized record of the patient?  Did he have some plan to review
> it at some future date?
>
> My friend is now looking for a new doctor.  The experience (and how much
> BETTER he now feels after the medication changes) has made it clear to him
> that his previous doctor wasn't giving him the best of care.  The 
> *patient*
> is the entity to be satisfied, not the doctor's "office manager" (metering
> out appointments in 15 minute blocks).
>
>>>>> I've a neighbor who loudly claims NOT to be racist.  But, if you take
>>>>> the
>>>>> whole of your experiences with him and the various comments he has 
>>>>> made,
>>>>> over the years (e.g., not shopping at a particular store because there
>>>>> are lots of blacks living in the apartment complex across the street
>>>>> from said store -- meaning lots of them SHOP in that store!), it's
>>>>> not hard to come to that conclusion.
>>>>>
>>>>> He also is very vocal about The Border (an hour from here).  Yet,
>>>>> ALWAYS hires mexicans.  Does he ever check to see if they are here
>>>>> legally?  Entitled to work?  Or, is he really only concerned with
>>>>> the price they charge?
>>>>>
>>>>> When you (I) speak to other neighbors about his behavior, do they
>>>>> offer similar conclusions as to his "character"?
>>>>
>>>> I'm not following what that has to do with AI.
>>>
>>> It speaks to bias.  Bias that people have and either ignore or
>>> deny, despite it being obvious to others.
>>>
>>> Those "others" will react to you WITH consideration of that bias
>>> factored into their actions.
>>
>> So will AI.
>
> An AI's bias is potentially more harmful.  My neighbor is limited in
> what he can do -- the extent of his influence/power.  "He's only one man".
> But, an AI can be replicated and have greater influence in policy matters
> BECAUSE it's an AI (and not "just a man")
>
>>>>> I visit a friend, daily, who is highly prejudiced, completely opposite
>>>>> in terms of my political, spiritual, etc. beliefs, hugely different
>>>>> values, etc.  He is continually critical of my appearance, how I
>>>>> dress, the hours that I sleep, where I shop, what I spend money on
>>>>> (and what I *don't*), etc.  And, I just smile and let his comments 
>>>>> roll
>>>>> off me.  SWMBO asks why I spend *any* time with him.
>>>>>
>>>>> "I find it entertaining!" (!!)
>>>>
>>>> Oh. Now I get why we're having this discussion.
>>>
>>> I am always looking for opportunities to learn.  How can you be so
>>> critical
>>> of ALL these things (not just myself but EVERYONE around him including
>>> all of the folks he *hires*!) and still remain in this "situation"?
>>> You can afford to move anywhere (this isn't even your "home") so why
>>> stay here with these people -- and providers -- that you (appear to)
>>> dislike?  If you go to a restaurant and are served a bad meal, do you
>>> just eat it and grumble under your breath?  Do you RETURN to the
>>> restaurant for "more punishment"?
>>>
>>> Explain to me WHY you engage in such behavior.  I visit a restaurant and
>>> am unhappy with the meal, I bring it to the waiter's/maitre d's 
>>> attention.
>>> If I have a similar problem a second time, I just avoid the restaurant
>>> entirely -- and see to it that I share this "recommendation" with my
>>> friends.  There are too many other choices to "settle" for a 
>>> disappointing
>>> experience!
>>
>> AI restaurants are likely coming where not only do you order on an ipad
>> yourself but the food is not made by human cooks.
>
> My reaction is the same.  But, likely they only get ONE chance to
> disappoint me (as I would expect EVERY subsequent experience to be
> repeatably identical to that first disappointment)
>
>>> Annoyed with all the "illegals" coming across the border?  Then why
>>> wouldn't you "hire white people"?  Or, at least, verify the latino's
>>> working papers (or, hire through an agency that does this, instead of
>>> a guy operating out of his second-hand pickup truck)!  If we closed
>>> the border as you seem to advocate, what will you THEN do to get
>>> cheap labor?  I.e., how do you rationalize these discrepancies in your
>>> own mind?  (Really!  I wold like to understand how such conflicting 
>>> goals
>>> can coexist FORCEFULLY in their minds!)
>>
>> None of this seems to be related to AI except that AI will behave just 
>> like
>> humans if it's trained that way.
>
> But humans don't know how they (humans) are trained!

Yes. So?

As AI gets better and better there is clearly a lot to think about.
Otherwise it may become more like humans than we would like.

I don't claim to know how you do this or that with AI.
But I do know that we now seem to be moving towards being able to make
something which matches the complexity of the human central nervous system.
I don't say we are there yet and I don't know when we will be.
In the past it would have been unthinkable that we could really make
something like a human brain because nothing of sufficient complexity could
be made.
It is my view that you don't need to know how a brain works to be able to
make a brain.
You just need something which has sufficient complexity which learns to
become what you want it to become.

You seem to think that humans have something which AI can never have.
I don't. So perhaps we should leave it there.

>
> Explain how, in detail, a child learns.  What are the "best practices"?
> And why?  Which practices are contraindicated?  After all this time,
> why aren't we adept at properly "training" children?  (for which
> culture?)
>
.....
> 

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