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From: Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Every D correctly simulated by H never reaches its final state and halts
Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 11:08:20 +0300
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On 2024-05-19 13:59:09 +0000, olcott said:

> On 5/19/2024 8:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
>> On 2024-05-19 12:36:08 +0000, olcott said:
>> 
>>> On 5/19/2024 5:37 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>> On 2024-05-18 14:38:53 +0000, olcott said:
>>>> 
>>>>> On 5/18/2024 4:45 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>> On 2024-05-17 15:55:03 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 5/17/2024 4:08 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-17 07:25:52 +0000, Fred. Zwarts said:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Op 17.mei.2024 om 03:15 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>> The following is self-evidently true on the basis of the
>>>>>>>>>> semantics of the C programming language.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> typedef int (*ptr)();  // ptr is pointer to int function
>>>>>>>>>> 00 int H(ptr x, ptr x);
>>>>>>>>>> 01 int D(ptr x)
>>>>>>>>>> 02 {
>>>>>>>>>> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>>>>>>>> 04   if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>>> 05     HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>>> 06   return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>>> 07 }
>>>>>>>>>> 08
>>>>>>>>>> 09 int main()
>>>>>>>>>> 10 {
>>>>>>>>>> 11   H(D,D);
>>>>>>>>>> 12   return 0;
>>>>>>>>>> 13 }
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> In the above case a simulator is an x86 emulator that correctly
>>>>>>>>>> emulates at least one of the x86 instructions of D in the order
>>>>>>>>>> specified by the x86 instructions of D.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> This may include correctly emulating the x86 instructions of H
>>>>>>>>>> in the order specified by the x86 instructions of H thus calling
>>>>>>>>>> H(D,D) in recursive simulation.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Any H/D pair matching the above template where
>>>>>>>>>> D(D) is simulated by the same H(D,D) that it calls
>>>>>>>>>> cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> *This is a simple software engineering verified fact*
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Note that olcott defines 'verified fact' as 'proven fact', but he is 
>>>>>>>>> unable to show the proof. So, it must be read as 'my belief'.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> A "proven fact" without a proof is not worse than a "verified fact"
>>>>>>>> without a verification.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> *I updated my wording*
>>>>>>> It is self-evidently true to anyone having sufficient knowledge
>>>>>>> of the semantics of the C programming language.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> No, it is not. I would know if it were.
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> If you do not understand that a single valid counter-example
>>>>> would refute my claim then you don't know enough about proofs.
>>>> 
>>>> Your claim
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> Most people to not know the difference between deductive proof
>>> ]and inductive evidence.
>> 
>> Most people don't read comp.theory so here we needn't care.
>> 
> 
> If anyone is trying to prove me wrong they
> must first understand what an actual proof is.
> 
> Several people here seem to think that ad hominem personal
> attacks and insults are the basis for a valid rebuttal.
> 
> Richard has stated that he thinks that an example of
> {D never simulated by H} ∈ {every D simulated by H}

More generally, everybody who knows what ∈ usually means,
thinks that {} ∈ X is true unless it is a syntax error.

> On 5/1/2024 7:28 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> Message-ID: <v0ummt$2qov3$2@i2pn2.org>
> http://al.howardknight.net/?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3Cv0ummt%242qov3%242%40i2pn2.org%3E 
> 
> 
>>>>>>> It is self-evidently true to anyone having sufficient knowledge
>>>>>>> of the semantics of the C programming language.
>>>> 
>>>> is a little unclear about the meaning of "It" but I think it
>>>> is false for any reasonable interpretation. Can I call myself
>>>> a counter-example?

As this question seems unanswered I thing it is best to say that
you haven't proven that I am not a counter-example and therefore
that a counter-example does not exist.

-- 
Mikko