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From: b.schafer@ed.ac.uk (Burkhard)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: West Virginia creationism
Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 14:43:50 +0000
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Ron Dean wrote:

> Chris Thompson wrote:
>> Ron Dean wrote:
>>> Ernest Major wrote:
>>>> On 14/05/2024 01:58, Chris Thompson wrote:
>>>>> Ernest Major wrote:
>>>>>> On 13/05/2024 15:19, Chris Thompson wrote:
>>>>>>> Ron Dean wrote:
>>>>>>>> Chris Thompson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Ron Dean wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Chris Thompson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Ron Dean wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> major snip
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>> The Slave-holding South. Southerners bought slaves from the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> North. What about the Northern Slave Merchants and 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Manufacturers who built ships for the cargo for the slave 
>>>>>>>>>>>> trading North. This is rarely mentioned in history. And of 
>>>>>>>>>>>> course, history is written by the victors.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Not to mention the real cause of the US Civil War was tariffs 
>>>>>>>>>>>> imposed on the South. Lincoln had no objection to slavery. In 
>>>>>>>>>>>> fact slavery as a issue did not exist until 2 years after the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> start of the war. It was raised by Lincoln only after Great 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Brittan showed an interested in entering into the war on the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> side of the South. Slavery was then made a moral issue, which 
>>>>>>>>>>>> deterred Britten, which earlier had outlawed slave trading.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Well we can add US history to the lengthy-but-ever-expanding 
>>>>>>>>>>> list of topics about which you blather sans knowledge.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The founders knew that slavery would eventually have to be 
>>>>>>>>>>> abolished. But they also know that if they tried to do so 
>>>>>>>>>>> immediately after gaining independence from Britain there 
>>>>>>>>>>> would be no hope of forming a single nation. That didn't stop 
>>>>>>>>>>> them from fighting about slavery (and viciously at times) in 
>>>>>>>>>>> the Constitutional Convention of 1787- rather a fair bit of 
>>>>>>>>>>> time before the 1858 point in time you assert (idiotically) 
>>>>>>>>>>> people all of a sudden became concerned with slavery. And at 
>>>>>>>>>>> that Convention a resolution was passed that the international 
>>>>>>>>>>> slave trade would be banned in the US in 1800.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You also apparently slept through the part in class when the 
>>>>>>>>>>> Missouri Compromise was discussed. That was in 1820, and the 
>>>>>>>>>>> result was Missouri coming into the US as a slave state and 
>>>>>>>>>>> Maine as a free state.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We probably should also mention the Compromise of 1850, 
>>>>>>>>>>> brokered between Henry Clay and Stephen Douglas (do those 
>>>>>>>>>>> names sound at all familiar?). This group of laws included, 
>>>>>>>>>>> shamefully, the Fugitive Slave Act, which would do much to 
>>>>>>>>>>> inflame tensions between north and south.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But the two compromises also led pretty much directly to the 
>>>>>>>>>>> Kansas-Nebraska Act (1854) which precipitated the disaster now 
>>>>>>>>>>> called "Bleeding Kansas." Maybe you've heard of John Brown, 
>>>>>>>>>>> and the Pottawatomie Massacre and the raid on Harper's Ferry? 
>>>>>>>>>>> No? Not surprising if you think no one cared about slavery 
>>>>>>>>>>> until two years before the Civil War.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And tariffs were the cause of the Civil War? Even for you, 
>>>>>>>>>>> that's unmitigated, steaming fetid fecal matter. It. Was. 
>>>>>>>>>>> Slavery.
>>>>>>>>>>> Not. Tariffs.
>>>>>>>>>>> Not. States'. Rights.
>>>>>>>>>>> Slavery.
>>>>>>>>>>> Read the individual states' articles of secession. They're all 
>>>>>>>>>>> available. Without fail, they all inform us that the reason 
>>>>>>>>>>> they are seceding is slavery.
>>>>>>>>>>> Read the reports of the Cornerstone Speech by Alexander 
>>>>>>>>>>> Stephens- the Vice President of the CSA. Slavery is the 
>>>>>>>>>>> cornerstone of their ideology; it is the reason for the war; 
>>>>>>>>>>> it is the inherent inferiority of Black people ("the Negro") 
>>>>>>>>>>> that relegates them to their lot as slaves.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You're wrong about everything.
>>>>>>>>>>> And this revisionist crap about the cause of the Civil War is 
>>>>>>>>>>> especially disgusting. Stop it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Not that I don't find the fact that slavery is repugnant, 
>>>>>>>>>> unjustified and inhuman: I absolutely do.
>>>>>>>>>> But again there's enough guilt to go around. The Northern 
>>>>>>>>>> states originally were also involved with
>>>>>>>>>> slavery, a fact not mentioned by you and rarely iealsewhere. 
>>>>>>>>>> Northerners were the slavers that built slave ships and 
>>>>>>>>>> manufactured goods for trading and Northern merchants traded 
>>>>>>>>>> with native people for slaves. It was not Southern farmers 
>>>>>>>>>> going to Africa for invading the continent for slaves, but they 
>>>>>>>>>> bought slaves from the northern merchant. In fact my 
>>>>>>>>>> ggggrandfather (3) gfathers was a slave.  This also applies to 
>>>>>>>>>> most African- Americans. My 14 year old gggmother was raped, 
>>>>>>>>>> and he was hung. Heard this from my grandmother. Not that I'm 
>>>>>>>>>> proud of this part of my ancestory. But I have had life, which 
>>>>>>>>>> otherwise I would not have had.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My mother was from Germany, married my father,  stationed in 
>>>>>>>>>> Germany after WWII. So, had it not been for slavery I would not 
>>>>>>>>>> have had life, nor life in the US. Would my father and mother 
>>>>>>>>>> ever have met except for WWII - not likely.   The point is we 
>>>>>>>>>> don't always have control over the events that happened, and 
>>>>>>>>>> often tragedies that happen can have positive outcomes for some 
>>>>>>>>>> of us.
>>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.marottaonmoney.com/protective-tariffs-the-primary-cause-of-the-civil-war/
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.essentialcivilwarcurriculum.com/tariffs-and-the-american-civil-war.html
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_in_United_States_history
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 90% of what you wrote has nothing to do with the topic. I for 
>>>>>>>>> one don't believe much of anything you wrote about your family 
>>>>>>>>> history, and even if it's true, I don't care.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Your first reference was written by a pair of financial 
>>>>>>>>> advisers. Couldn't you have at least made an effort to find even 
>>>>>>>>> a shitty apologist historian to support your disgusting racist 
>>>>>>>>> bullshit? As for your second reference, here's a passage from 
>>>>>>>>> near the end (did you read anything besides the title? Your 
>>>>>>>>> scholarship is matched evenly with your honesty- both are in the 
>>>>>>>>> sewer):
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "For the northern government’s diplomatic objectives, as Cobden 
>>>>>>>>> and Bright continuously reminded Sumner, the Morrill Tariff had 
>>>>>>>>> been a shortsighted strategic blunder. It unintentionally 
>>>>>>>>> alienated an otherwise natural anti-slavery ally for what could, 
>>>>>>>>> at best, be described as short term economic favors to a few 
>>>>>>>>> politically connected firms and industrialists. The Confederacy 
>>>>>>>>> eagerly exploited this misstep in its unsuccessful quest for 
>>>>>>>>> diplomatic recognition, yet in doing so also elevated the tariff 
>>>>>>>>> cause from its role as an ancillary secessionist grievance to a 
>>>>>>>>> centerpiece of Lost Cause historiography."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That last bit about "Lost Cause historiography"? They are 
>>>>>>>>> pointing right at you (and the racist scum who wrote your first 
>>>>>>>>> shitty reference).
>>>>>>>>>  You're still wrong about everything, and you're a liar, and 
>>>>>>>>> you're a racist and an apologist for slavers.
>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>> You are so typical of people who cannot discredit an argument, 
>>>>>>>> they sink to slander, false accusations, liable, malice, back 
>>>>>>>> stabbing and character assassination. You did this without an shred
>>>>>>>> of evidence to back up your charges and accusations. This no 
>>>>>>>> doubt is you projecting you absence of character onto me. I'll 
>>>>>>>> have nothing more to do with you, a false accuser!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Spare me your faux outrage.
>>>>>>> You claimed no one cared about slavery until two years after the 
>>>>>>> Civil War started. I brought up the Missouri Compromise, the 
>>>>>>> Compromise of 1850, the Kansas-Nebraska Act, and Bleeding Kansas- 
>>>>>>> all years before the start of the Civil War. You claimed that 
>>>>>>> tariffs were the primary cause of the Civil War. I brought up the 
>>>>>>> Articles of Secession of every one of the rebel states, all of 
>>>>>>> which list slavery as the reason they seceded. I also brought up 
>>>>>>> the Cornerstone Speech by the vice-president of the CSA, in which 
>>>>>>> he clearly states the same thing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That you refuse to acknowledge evidence does not mean it does not 
>>>>>>> exist. That you continue to roll out your Lost Cause bullshit and 
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