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Path: ...!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic Subject: Re: Every D correctly simulated by H cannot possible reach its own line 06 and halt Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 13:03:12 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 150 Message-ID: <v2g390$3ugq$6@dont-email.me> References: <v0k4jc$laej$1@dont-email.me> <v0lkas$12q0o$3@dont-email.me> <v0loq2$2g493$1@i2pn2.org> <v0lq7d$14579$2@dont-email.me> <v0ls98$2g492$7@i2pn2.org> <v0m29q$166o1$1@dont-email.me> <v0m37e$2gl1e$1@i2pn2.org> <v0m3v5$16k3h$1@dont-email.me> <v0m55t$2gl1f$3@i2pn2.org> <v0m5sn$172p4$1@dont-email.me> <v0m7em$2gl1f$5@i2pn2.org> <v0m7tq$17dpv$1@dont-email.me> <v0m8g9$2gl1e$6@i2pn2.org> <v0m978$17k7o$3@dont-email.me> <v0mko6$2hf3s$2@i2pn2.org> <v0n59h$1h98e$1@dont-email.me> <v0o037$2j1tu$3@i2pn2.org> <v0oc65$1q3aq$3@dont-email.me> <v0p9ts$2ki5r$6@i2pn2.org> <v0q1rk$2a3u1$1@dont-email.me> <v0qkti$2m1nf$1@i2pn2.org> <v0r4a3$2hb7o$6@dont-email.me> <v0rsbr$2m1nf$6@i2pn2.org> <v0segm$2v4oq$1@dont-email.me> <v0t8o9$2p3ri$2@i2pn2.org> <v0tpjf$3881i$5@dont-email.me> <v0ulma$2qov4$1@i2pn2.org> <v2e45j$3kf2k$1@dont-email.me> <v2e7up$1g2n9$13@i2pn2.org> <v2edto$3pl2i$2@dont-email.me> <v2ef1c$1g2n9$14@i2pn2.org> <v2efle$3q0ko$1@dont-email.me> <v2fbtp$1g2n8$10@i2pn2.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 20:03:13 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="629f9cefad5d4023792ce8f8ed8d9594"; logging-data="129562"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+oWsORcrbMkfXNDH2nJoYo" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:gXN/A6Uuj2FNMyE02qqgQED4ikA= Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <v2fbtp$1g2n8$10@i2pn2.org> Bytes: 7299 On 5/20/2024 6:24 AM, Richard Damon wrote: > On 5/19/24 11:22 PM, olcott wrote: >> On 5/19/2024 10:11 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>> On 5/19/24 10:52 PM, olcott wrote: >>>> On 5/19/2024 8:10 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>> On 5/19/24 8:06 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>> On 5/1/2024 7:10 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> typedef int (*ptr)(); // ptr is pointer to int function >>>>>> 00 int H(ptr p, ptr i); >>>>>> 01 int D(ptr p) >>>>>> 02 { >>>>>> 03 int Halt_Status = H(p, p); >>>>>> 04 if (Halt_Status) >>>>>> 05 HERE: goto HERE; >>>>>> 06 return Halt_Status; >>>>>> 07 } >>>>>> 08 >>>>>> 09 int main() >>>>>> 10 { >>>>>> 11 H(D,D); >>>>>> 12 return 0; >>>>>> 13 } >>>>>> >>>>>> In the above case a simulator is an x86 emulator that correctly >>>>>> emulates at least one of the x86 instructions of D in the order >>>>>> specified by the x86 instructions of D. >>>>>> >>>>>> This may include correctly emulating the x86 instructions of H in >>>>>> the order specified by the x86 instructions of H thus calling >>>>>> H(D,D) in recursive simulation. >>>>>> >>>>>> For every H/D pair of the above template D correctly simulated by >>>>>> *pure function* H cannot possibly reach its own final state at >>>>>> line 06 and halt. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Ok, so adding that H is a pure function, that means that since your >>>>> outer H(D,D) is going to return 0, all logic must be compatible >>>>> with the fact that EVERY call to H(D,D) will also eventually return 0. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Remember also, THIS D is defined to call THIS H, that does exactly >>>>> the same as the H that is deciding it. >>>>> >>>> >>>> OK, good. >>> >>> Right, so it doesn't matter what any other D does, it matters what >>> THIS D does, and this D calls aths H. >>> >>> Remember, you reinstated the Computation model by enforcing Pure >>> Functions. >>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> <snip so that Message ID links to whole message> >>>>>> We can use my unique time/date stamp as an alternative. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Remember, YOU are the one saying you are needing to change the >>>>>>> definition from the classical theory, where we have things well >>>>>>> defined. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> YOU have decider that H is just whatever C code you want to write >>>>>>> for it, and D is the input proved. (which doesn't actually match >>>>>>> the Linz or Sipser proof, but fairly close). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> With THAT set of definitions we have a lot of options that break >>>>>>> your incorrectly assumed results. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The first method has been discussed here by Flibble. While the >>>>>>> final answer he got to doesn't fit the requirements, the first >>>>>>> part of the method DOES show that it is possible for an H to >>>>>>> simulate to past line 3. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> THe basic idea is that if H(M,d) finds that its simulation of >>>>>>> M(d) get to a call to H(M,d) then rather that your idea of just >>>>>>> saying it will get stuck and declair the input invalid, since >>>>>>> there ARE a number of possible inputs that there is a "correct" >>>>>>> answer that H can give to >>>>>> >>>>>> That D is calling H does not prove recursive simulation. >>>>>> That D is calling H with its same parameters does seem >>>>>> to prove non-halting recursive simulation. >>>>> >>>>> Nope. Try to actuall PROVE it. >>>>> >>>> >>>> That is off-topic for this post. >>>> All that we need know is that no D simulated by any H >>>> ever reaches its own line 06 and halts. >>> >>> Nope. Make a claim, you need to prove it. >>> >> >> *In other different post not this one* >> >> I am using categorically exhaustive reasoning that can work >> through every possibility that can possibly exist in a feasible >> amount of time as long as the category is very very narrow. > > But you can't PRECISELY define the category, or what you want to reason > about, so your logic is worthless as it is baseless. > *POINT TO ANY ACTUAL MISTAKE OR AMBIGUITY WITH THIS VERSION* typedef int (*ptr)(); // ptr is pointer to int function 00 int H(ptr p, ptr i); 01 int D(ptr p) 02 { 03 int Halt_Status = H(p, p); 04 if (Halt_Status) 05 HERE: goto HERE; 06 return Halt_Status; 07 } 08 09 int main() 10 { 11 H(D,D); 12 return 0; 13 } In the above case a simulator is an x86 emulator that correctly emulates at least one of the x86 instructions of D in the order specified by the x86 instructions of D. This may include correctly emulating the x86 instructions of H in the order specified by the x86 instructions of H thus calling H(D,D) in recursive simulation. Execution Trace Line 11: main() invokes H(D,D); keeps repeating (unless aborted) Line 01: Line 02: Line 03: simulated D(D) invokes simulated H(D,D) that simulates D(D) Simulation invariant: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03. For every H/D pair of the above template D correctly simulated by pure function (thus computable function) H cannot possibly reach its own final state at line 06 and halt. -- Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer