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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H remains stuck in
 recursive simulation?
Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 15:03:09 -0500
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On 5/24/2024 12:25 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 5/24/24 1:06 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/24/2024 5:46 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>> Op 24.mei.2024 om 03:44 schreef Richard Damon:
>>>> On 5/23/24 1:04 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> typedef int (*ptr)();  // ptr is pointer to int function in C
>>>>> 00       int H(ptr p, ptr i);
>>>>> 01       int D(ptr p)
>>>>> 02       {
>>>>> 03         int Halt_Status = H(p, p);
>>>>> 04         if (Halt_Status)
>>>>> 05           HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>> 06         return Halt_Status;
>>>>> 07       }
>>>>> 08
>>>>> 09       int main()
>>>>> 10       {
>>>>> 11         H(D,D);
>>>>> 12         return 0;
>>>>> 13       }
>>>>>
>>>>> The above template refers to an infinite set of H/D pairs where D is
>>>>> correctly simulated by pure function H. This was done because many
>>>>> reviewers used the shell game ploy to endlessly switch which H/D pair
>>>>> was being referred to.
>>>>>
>>>>> *Correct Simulation Defined*
>>>>>     This is provided because every reviewer had a different notion of
>>>>>     correct simulation that diverges from this notion.
>>>>>
>>>>>     A simulator is an x86 emulator that correctly emulates at least 
>>>>> one
>>>>>     of the x86 instructions of D in the order specified by the x86
>>>>>     instructions of D.
>>>>>
>>>>>     This may include correctly emulating the x86 instructions of H in
>>>>>     the order specified by the x86 instructions of H thus calling 
>>>>> H(D,D)
>>>>>     in recursive simulation.
>>>>>
>>>>> *Execution Trace*
>>>>>     Line 11: main() invokes H(D,D); H(D,D) simulates lines 01, 02, 
>>>>> and 03
>>>>>     of D. This invokes H(D,D) again to repeat the process in endless
>>>>>     recursive simulation.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Questions:
>>>>
>>>> By your definiton of "Correct Simulation", you do realize that you 
>>>> have broken connection between the simulaiton not completing and the 
>>>> program described by the input not halting?
>>>>
>>>> Also, you do realize that by your requirement on H just being a 
>>>> "pure function" that does NOT say that you H qualified to be the 
>>>> computational equivalent for a Turing Machine?
>>>>
>>>> That due to your "strange" definition of what D is, you are putting 
>>>> yourself outside of the grounds of "Computation Theory", as that 
>>>> deals with the behavior of specific PROGRAMS, and not the "Program 
>>>> Templates" like your D, our the "Infinite set of H/D pairs"?
>>>>
>>>> Also, your "templagte D" is NOT built per either the Linz or Sipser 
>>>> rules, as both of those had D built with a COPY of H, which is one 
>>>> of your problems with a "Pure Function" as the equivelent. You have 
>>>> shown that your H fails to meet the requirements of a Turing Machine 
>>>> equivalent, as you can't (or it seems you can't) make equivalent 
>>>> copies, where all copies always give the same answer for the same 
>>>> inputs. This is a fundamental property of Turing Machines, which is 
>>>> why just bing a "Pure Function" isn't good enough.
>>>>
>>>> These issus need to be handled or acknowledged, before agreement on 
>>>> your question, as you have shown a history of taking a statement and 
>>>> twisting it (perhaps not intentionally, but because you don't 
>>>> understand what was being communicated) so we need to have a firm 
>>>> understand of what you mean and evidence that you accept the 
>>>> limititation causes by your altered definitions from the problem 
>>>> that you initially claimed to have started on.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, it also means that even if/when you get your agreement, 
>>>> you are no closer to your halting proof, as you have shown that you 
>>>> undestand that you conditions actually tell you NOTHING about the 
>>>> actual behavior of halting.
>>>>
>>>
>>> If olcott wants to be closer to the Linz or Sipser rules, he could do 
>>> so with a small modification: use different names for H. Use H1 when 
>>> called by main and use H2 when called by D. H1 and H2 are not 
>>> required to be exact copies of each other, but only to be 
>>> functionally equivalent. By doing so, a lot of useless discussions 
>>> could be avoided.
>>
>> *That violates this*
>> For any program H that might determine whether programs halt, a 
>> "pathological" program D, called with some input, can pass its own 
>> source and its input to H and then specifically do the opposite of 
>> what H predicts D will do. No H can exist that handles this case. 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem
>>
> 
> Nope, D, that pathological program, is supposed to be built with its own 
> COPY of the decider, since to BE a program, it needs a complete source set.
> 

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-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer