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From: "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: An actual circuit
Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 18:20:58 -0400
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"Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message 
news:v2r325$2h00c$1@dont-email.me...
> john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 24 May 2024 16:22:23 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
>> <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> "john larkin" <jl@650pot.com> wrote in message
>>> news:uts15jlh0oo1hin58uu4a574kg5q3j9q5b@4ax.com...
>>>> On Fri, 24 May 2024 14:50:19 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
>>>> <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Jeroen Belleman" <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in message
>>>>> news:v2qmeq$2eknc$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>> On 5/24/24 17:59, Edward Rawde wrote:
>>>>>>> "john larkin" <jl@650pot.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:bk815jh3skuecf1tap8o41rpgdh5kkq8o5@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 May 2024 13:06:46 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> 
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 May 2024 15:35:00 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
>>>>>>>>> <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I was having a conversation with a younger person who seemed to 
>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> view that to make an LED flash you would need something to decide
>>>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>> should be on or off. So that would be some kind of software or
>>>>>>>>>> digital
>>>>>>>>>> system.
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The classic NPN astable circuit can hang up, with both transistors
>>>>>>>> saturated. I wonder if he jfet circuit can hang too, with Idss
>>>>>>>> grounding both drains and not enough gain to oscillate out of that
>>>>>>>> state.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Even when they have a hang state, luck usually kicks them off into
>>>>>>>> oscillation. Your source resistors and  asymmetric drain resistors
>>>>>>>> help it start up. Try making both drain resistors 3.3K.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you make the source resistors lower, it will hang up.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes I noticed both points when I was designing it.
>>>>>>> I wanted to have it start up by itself, preferably without a 
>>>>>>> kickstart
>>>>>>> capacitor.
>>>>>>> So I had a complicated circuit with two more diodes and a transistor 
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> hope that I could detect the hang state and force it off balance.
>>>>>>> I couldn't get that to work
>>>>>>> Then I accidentally made R2 3,3k and R6 3.3k and I didn't see how it
>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>> start so quickly with no other help.
>>>>>>> Eventually I noticed 3,3k which maybe LTSpice takes as 3k.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If R2 and R6 are both 3.3k then LTSpice says it slowly drifts into
>>>>>>> operation
>>>>>>> after 40 seconds.
>>>>>>> But why does it go one way and not the other?
>>>>>>> Is that an artefact of asymmetry in the simulation?
>>>>>>> Or is there some hidden asymmetry in the circuit I'm not seeing when 
>>>>>>> R2
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> 3.3k?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Below are a pair of astable circuits. The left one is like yours,
>>>>>> with a hangup state. I start it by specifying an initial condition.
>>>>>> The right one will start all by itself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for that. I guess I'm biased towards components I could easily 
>>>>> get
>>>>> in
>>>>> the 70s. And also through hole components I can easily build a real
>>>>> circuit
>>>>> with.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I like to use surface-mount parts on a Dremeled PCB.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/7bihbjbaojvta0z/Z382_1.JPG?raw=1
>>>>
>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/zaftysxtgclxj82/Z412_Proto.JPG?raw=1
>>>>
>>>> You can do fast, 50-ohm picosecond stuff this way too.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks I probably do have some copper clad board I could do that with.
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> Use a round-end carbide dental burr. They are cheap on ebay.
>>
>> It's cool, kind of an art form. Takes some practice.
>>
>> I have a few square feet of gold-plated copperclad FR4, which is even
>> nicer. Regular copperclad looks grungy after a few months.
>>
>>
>
> I'm not nearly as posh as you are

Not sure why that made me laugh.

>, so for my purposes a spritz of Krylon
> clear acrylic on a clean board is a ticket.
>
> You can solder right through it, and it keeps the copper looking nice for 
> a
> long time.

I seem to remember, a long long time ago using copper clad board, some clear 
sticky tape and a very sharp knife.
Followed by Ferric Chloride.
An etch resist pen could also be used if the tape removal didn't go exactly 
as planned.

But yes it's true that after removing the etch resist you might want 
something to keep the copper looking nice and shiny.

>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>
> -- 
> Dr Philip C D Hobbs  Principal Consultant  ElectroOptical Innovations LLC 
> /
> Hobbs ElectroOptics  Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics