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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: sci.logic,comp.theory
Subject: Re: True on the basis of meaning --- Good job Richard ! ---Socratic
 method (agreement)
Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 13:13:02 -0500
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On 5/25/2024 3:01 AM, Mikko wrote:
> On 2024-05-24 19:16:47 +0000, olcott said:
> 
>> On 5/24/2024 3:18 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>> On 2024-05-23 13:32:51 +0000, olcott said:
>>>
>>>> On 5/23/2024 3:09 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-05-23 01:03:44 +0000, Richard Damon said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/22/24 7:55 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/22/2024 6:01 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/22/24 3:52 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/22/2024 11:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-22 15:55:39 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/22/2024 2:57 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-21 14:36:29 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/21/2024 3:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-20 17:48:40 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2024 2:55 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-19 14:15:51 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/19/2024 9:03 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-19 13:41:56 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/19/2024 6:55 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/24 11:47 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2024 6:04 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/24 6:47 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2024 5:22 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/24 4:00 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2024 2:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/24 3:46 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2024 12:38 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/24 1:26 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2024 11:56 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/24 12:48 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2024 9:32 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/24 10:15 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2024 7:43 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, your system contradicts itself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have never shown this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The most you have shown is a lack of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understanding of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Truth Teller Paradox.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, I have, but you don't understand the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> proof, it seems because you don't know 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what a "Truth Predicate" has been 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> defined to be.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My True(L,x) predicate is defined to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> return true or false for every
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finite string x on the basis of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> existence of a sequence of truth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> preserving operations that derive x from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And thus, When True(L, p) established a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sequence of truth preserving operations 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> eminationg from ~True(L, p) by returning 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> false, it contradicts itself. The problem 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is that True, in making an answer of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> false, has asserted that such a sequence 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exists.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/13/2024 9:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > On 5/13/24 10:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >> On 5/13/2024 7:29 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>> Remember, p defined as ~True(L, p) ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >> Can a sequence of true preserving 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operations applied
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >> to expressions that are stipulated to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be true derive p?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > No, so True(L, p) is false
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >> Can a sequence of true preserving 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operations applied
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >> to expressions that are stipulated to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be true derive ~p?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > No, so False(L, p) is false,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *To help you concentrate I repeated this*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Liar Paradox and your formalized Liar 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paradox both
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradict themselves that is why they must 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be screened
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out as type mismatch error 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-truth-bearers *BEFORE THAT OCCURS*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And the Truth Predicate isn't allowed to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "filter" out expressions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> YOU ALREADY KNOW THAT IT DOESN'T
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WE HAVE BEEN OVER THIS AGAIN AND AGAIN
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THE FORMAL SYSTEM USES THE TRUE AND FALSE 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PREDICATE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TO FILTER OUT TYPE MISMATCH ERROR
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first thing that the formal system does 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arbitrary finite string input is see if it is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a Truth-bearer:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, we can ask True(L, x) for any expression x 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and get an answer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The system is designed so you can ask this, yet 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-truth-bearers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are rejected before True(L, x) is allowed to be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> called.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not allowed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My True(L,x) predicate is defined to return true 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or false for every
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finite string x on the basis of the existence of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a sequence of truth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> preserving operations that derive x from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A set of finite string semantic meanings that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> form an accurate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verbal model of the general knowledge of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actual world that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> form a finite set of finite strings that are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stipulated to have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the semantic value of Boolean true.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *This is computable* Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *This is computable* Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *This is computable* Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *This is computable* Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *This is computable* Truthbearer(L,x) ≡ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (True(L,x) ∨ True(L,~x))
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, for a statement x to be false, it says that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there must be a sequence of truth perserving 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operations that derive ~x from, right?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes we must build from mutual agreement, good.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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