Path: ...!weretis.net!feeder9.news.weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: D correctly simulated by pure function H cannot possibly reach
 its, own line 06 --- Linz proof
Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 13:11:16 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 120
Message-ID: <v2vu04$3gj7j$2@dont-email.me>
References: <v2nsvh$1rd65$2@dont-email.me> <v2tfms$30u1r$3@dont-email.me>
 <v2tgv2$22aq0$2@i2pn2.org> <v2th6a$319s1$1@dont-email.me>
 <v2tjpr$22aq1$9@i2pn2.org> <v2tk9i$31qgp$1@dont-email.me>
 <v2tkit$22aq0$6@i2pn2.org> <v2tl8b$31uo4$2@dont-email.me>
 <v2tm5d$22aq0$7@i2pn2.org> <v2tnr1$32e7p$1@dont-email.me>
 <v2tp5n$22aq0$9@i2pn2.org> <v2tpdg$32me8$2@dont-email.me>
 <v2tptp$22aq1$13@i2pn2.org> <v2tq50$32r0d$2@dont-email.me>
 <v2tqh7$22aq1$15@i2pn2.org> <v2tr68$32uto$1@dont-email.me>
 <v2trch$23vgp$1@i2pn2.org> <v2trts$331vq$1@dont-email.me>
 <v2tsub$23vgp$2@i2pn2.org> <v2u0o5$33mgp$1@dont-email.me>
 <v2u2uf$23vgp$4@i2pn2.org> <v2u5a0$349br$2@dont-email.me>
 <v2u6if$23vgo$3@i2pn2.org> <v2u7fj$38fjo$1@dont-email.me>
 <v2v79q$25ell$2@i2pn2.org> <v2vg1g$3e8pb$4@dont-email.me>
 <v2vo5h$26570$3@i2pn2.org> <v2vpt6$3g0m3$3@dont-email.me>
 <v2vqou$26570$5@i2pn2.org> <v2vrcl$3gakv$1@dont-email.me>
 <v2vslp$26570$6@i2pn2.org> <v2vt1h$3gj7j$1@dont-email.me>
 <v2vtd4$26570$7@i2pn2.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 20:11:17 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="b67ec24a85de95a55e6b4d0cc81926c3";
	logging-data="3689715"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX182tkBL8Dg/mxf8V4JNvt4m"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:swekZ6ql4T+f2yT7MTsH6DpgvEc=
In-Reply-To: <v2vtd4$26570$7@i2pn2.org>
Content-Language: en-US
Bytes: 6862

On 5/26/2024 1:01 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 5/26/24 1:54 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/26/2024 12:48 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 5/26/24 1:26 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/26/2024 12:16 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 5/26/24 1:01 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/26/2024 11:31 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/26/24 10:13 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/26/2024 6:43 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> typedef int (*ptr)();  // ptr is pointer to int function in C
>>>>>>>> 00       int H(ptr p, ptr i);
>>>>>>>> 01       int D(ptr p)
>>>>>>>> 02       {
>>>>>>>> 03         int Halt_Status = H(p, p);
>>>>>>>> 04         if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>> 05           HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>> 06         return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>> 07       }
>>>>>>>> 08
>>>>>>>> 09       int main()
>>>>>>>> 10       {
>>>>>>>> 11         H(D,D);
>>>>>>>> 12         return 0;
>>>>>>>> 13       }
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Because, as I have said, the answer and reasoning changes 
>>>>>>>>> depending on what you acknowledged are the implications of your 
>>>>>>>>> stipulations. For instance, if your actual understanding of 
>>>>>>>>> being a "Pure Function" is that the program is the equivalent 
>>>>>>>>> of a Turing Machine, then we need to add a strictness to the 
>>>>>>>>> definition that isn't normally used for just "Pure Functions", 
>>>>>>>>> like accessing value of registers like the program counter or 
>>>>>>>>> stack pointer might not be allowed in some cases. (which breaks 
>>>>>>>>> you H).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since we can see (and you already agreed) that D correctly 
>>>>>>>> simulated
>>>>>>>> by pure simulator H remains stuck in infinite recursive 
>>>>>>>> simulation then
>>>>>>>> we also know that D never reaches its own line 06 and halts in less
>>>>>>>> than an infinite number of correctly simulated steps.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But it depends on what H actually does, which you refuse to agree 
>>>>>>> to.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I specify that D is correctly simulated by pure function H, that
>>>>>> means that H is a pure simulator that stops simulating D after some
>>>>>> finite number of correctly simulated steps. There is absolutely 
>>>>>> nothing
>>>>>> else that needs to be known about H besides this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And, do you accept that this exact description means that H is NOT 
>>>>> the computational equivalent of a Turing Machine, and that this 
>>>>> simulation doesn't prove that its input is not a non-halting program?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In other words you are saying that it is 100% totally impossible to
>>>> adapt an actual UTM so that it stops simulating after a finite 
>>>> number of
>>>> steps.
>>>
>>> Yep, at least and have it still be a UTM.
>>>
>>> IMPOSSIBLE BY DEFINITION.
>>
>> *Yet not otherwise impossible at all*
> 
> In other words, you beleive that you can presume the impossible to happen.
> 
> You logic is DEAD.
> 
> YOu are worse than the election deniers
> 
> I guess you don't know the meaning of the word "Definition", which says 
> a lot about you ideas of things being true by the meaning of the words, 
> if words don't really have their meaning.
> 
>>
>> When Ĥ is applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>>
>> Thus when we hypothesize that embedded_H is an exact UTM then we
>> see that ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ correctly simulated by embedded_H cannot possibly
>> reach its own simulated final state of ⟨Ĥ.qn⟩ even in an infinite
>> number of simulated steps.
> 
> Except if Embedded) is an EXACT UTM, then so is H and as we have agreed, 
> H fails to be a decide.
> 
>>
>>  From this we can definitively conclude that ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ correctly simulated
>> by embedded_H cannot possibly reach its own simulated final state of
>> ⟨Ĥ.qn⟩ in less than an infinite number of simulated steps.
>>
>>
> 
> Well, if you H is a UTM, then yes, neither H nor embedded_H can return 
> an answer for the H^ built on them, and thus fail to be a decider.
> 
> So, you are just showing your logic is based on the assumption of the 
> impossible, and on you lying abou ti.
> 

When ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ correctly simulated by UTM embedded_H cannot possibly
reach its own simulated final state of ⟨Ĥ.qn⟩ in an infinite number
of correctly simulated steps then we can definitely conclude that it
can't do this in less than an infinite number of steps.



-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer