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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Two dozen people were simply wrong --- Try to prove otherwise
Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 21:58:51 -0500
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On 5/30/2024 9:51 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 5/30/24 10:32 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/30/2024 9:15 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 5/30/24 9:54 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/30/2024 8:37 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 5/30/24 9:31 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/30/2024 2:40 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2024-05-30 01:15:21 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> x <is> a finite string Turing machine description that SPECIFIES 
>>>>>>>> behavior. The term: "representing" is inaccurate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, x is a description of the Turing machine that specifies the 
>>>>>>> behaviour
>>>>>>> that H is required to report. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is what I said.
>>>>>
>>>>> Note, the string doesn't DIRECTLY specify behavior, but only 
>>>>> indirectly as a description/representation of the Turing Mach
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The string directly SPECIFIES behavior to a UTM or to
>>>> any TM based on a UTM.
>>>
>>> By telling that UTM information about the state-transition table of 
>>> the machine.
>>>
>>> Note, the description of the machine doesn't depend on the input 
>>> given to it, so it needs to fully specify how to recreate the 
>>> behavior of the machine for ALL inputs (an infinite number of them) 
>>> in a finite string.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The maning of x is that there is a universal
>>>>>>> Turing machine that, when given x and y, simulates what the 
>>>>>>> described
>>>>>>> Turing machine does when given y. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes that is also correct.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When Ĥ is applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When embedded_H is a UTM then it never halts.
>>>>>
>>>>> But it isn't unless H is also a UTM, and then H never returns.
>>>>>
>>>>> You like to keep returning to that deception.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When embedded_H is a simulating halt decider then its correctly
>>>>>> simulated input never reaches its own simulated final state of
>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ.qn⟩ and halts. H itself does halt and correctly rejects its
>>>>>> input as non-halting.
>>>>>
>>>>> Except that isn't what the question is, the question is what the 
>>>>> actual behavior of the machine described, or equivalently, the 
>>>>> simulation by a REAL UTM (one that never stops till done).
>>>>
>>>> When embedded_H is a real UTM then Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ never stops and embedded_H is
>>>> not a decider.
>>>
>>> Right, that is YOUR delema. You can't make H / embedded_H a UTM 
>>> without making it not a decider, thus "Correct Simulation by H" can't 
>>> be the answer, since H can't do both.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> When embedded_H is based on a real UTM then ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ correctly simulated
>>>> by embedded_H never reaches its own simulated final state of ⟨Ĥ.qn⟩ in
>>>> any finite number of steps and after these finite steps embedded_H
>>>> halts.
>>>
>>> Then its simulation isn't "correct" per the definitions that relate 
>>> simulation to behavior.
>>>
>>
>> typedef int (*ptr)();  // ptr is pointer to int function in C
>> 00       int HH(ptr p, ptr i);
>> 01       int DD(ptr p)
>> 02       {
>> 03         int Halt_Status = HH(p, p);
>> 04         if (Halt_Status)
>> 05           HERE: goto HERE;
>> 06         return Halt_Status;
>> 07       }
>> 08
>> 09       int main()
>> 10       {
>> 11         HH(DD,DD);
>> 12         return 0;
>> 13       }
>>
>> In other words you are insisting that every correct simulation
>> of DD by HH must simulate the following x86 machine code of DD
>> *incorrectly or in the incorrect order* because the following
>> machine code proves that DD correctly simulated by HH cannot
>> possibly reach its own machine address of 00001c47.
> 
> It is "Incorrect" in that it is incomplete.
> 

You already acknowledged that DD correctly simulated by pure simulator
HH never reaches its own simulated final state so you already know that
a complete simulation does not help.

*Try and show how you are not lying*

_DD()
[00001c22] 55         push ebp
[00001c23] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
[00001c25] 51         push ecx
[00001c26] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
[00001c29] 50         push eax         ; push DD 1c22
[00001c2a] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
[00001c2d] 51         push ecx         ; push DD 1c22
[00001c2e] e80ff7ffff call 00001342    ; call HH
[00001c33] 83c408     add esp,+08
[00001c36] 8945fc     mov [ebp-04],eax
[00001c39] 837dfc00   cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
[00001c3d] 7402       jz 00001c41
[00001c3f] ebfe       jmp 00001c3f
[00001c41] 8b45fc     mov eax,[ebp-04]
[00001c44] 8be5       mov esp,ebp
[00001c46] 5d         pop ebp
[00001c47] c3         ret
Size in bytes:(0038) [00001c47]

*I am going to stop here and not respond to anything else*
*that you say until AFTER this one point is fully resolved*



-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer