Path: ...!news.nobody.at!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06
 and halt
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2024 22:18:06 +0200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 139
Message-ID: <v3l8dv$13cp$10@dont-email.me>
References: <v3asj2$2ihjj$2@i2pn2.org> <v3asv1$1s60g$1@dont-email.me>
 <v3bvg7$24rgd$1@dont-email.me> <v3cml5$28tmt$1@dont-email.me>
 <v3fp7v$2o13h$4@i2pn2.org> <v3fpjd$2t7mj$3@dont-email.me>
 <v3h8qg$394r1$1@dont-email.me> <v3htdf$3bkv5$6@dont-email.me>
 <v3k1c8$3r3ol$1@dont-email.me> <v3kffr$3t5s5$7@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2024 22:18:07 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="4aa76005a7c4778429e99a66774e7ab2";
	logging-data="36249"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/UBr8OdZILyKodkabhXWMu"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:DJCr/ezlgsLg+7c0EGSXE5GcyJo=
Content-Language: en-GB
In-Reply-To: <v3kffr$3t5s5$7@dont-email.me>
Bytes: 7262

Op 03.jun.2024 om 15:12 schreef olcott:
> On 6/3/2024 4:11 AM, Mikko wrote:
>> On 2024-06-02 13:51:43 +0000, olcott said:
>>
>>> On 6/2/2024 3:00 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>> On 2024-06-01 18:34:22 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>
>>>>> On 6/1/2024 1:28 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>> Am Fri, 31 May 2024 09:25:40 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>> On 5/31/2024 2:50 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>> Op 31.mei.2024 om 00:01 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/30/2024 4:54 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Am Thu, 30 May 2024 09:55:24 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> typedef int (*ptr)();  // ptr is pointer to int function in C
>>>>>>>>>>> 00       int H(ptr p, ptr i);
>>>>>>>>>>> 01       int D(ptr p)
>>>>>>>>>>> 02       {
>>>>>>>>>>> 03         int Halt_Status = H(p, p);
>>>>>>>>>>> 04         if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>>>> 05           HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>>>> 06         return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>>>> 07       }
>>>>>>>>>>> 08
>>>>>>>>>>> 09       int main()
>>>>>>>>>>> 10       {
>>>>>>>>>>> 11         H(D,D);
>>>>>>>>>>> 12         return 0;
>>>>>>>>>>> 13       }
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone with sufficient knowledge of C can easily determine 
>>>>>>>>>>> that D
>>>>>>>>>>> correctly emulated by any *pure function* H (using an x86 
>>>>>>>>>>> emulator)
>>>>>>>>>>> cannot possibly reach its own simulated final state at line 
>>>>>>>>>>> 06 and
>>>>>>>>>>> halt.
>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, of course not, if H doesn’t halt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Or maybe you did not know that every computation that never 
>>>>>>>>> reaches
>>>>>>>>> its own final state *DOES NOT HALT* even if it stops running 
>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>> it is no longer simulated.
>>>>>>>> Since the claim is that H is also a computation, it holds for H, as
>>>>>>>> well. That means that H *DOES NOT HALT* even if it stops running 
>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>> it is no longer simulated.
>>>>>>> *pure function H definitely halts you are confused*
>>>>>> The fuck? If H halts, then D can definitely reach past line 4.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Trying to get away with changing the subject away from this*
>>>>> *is known as the strawman deception*
>>>>>
>>>>> DD correctly simulated by pure function HH cannot possibly reach
>>>>> its own final state at line 06 in any finite number of steps of
>>>>> correct simulation.
>>>>
>>>> Your "DD correctly simulated by pure function HH" is an attempt
>>>> to deceive. Otherwise you would just say "DD" because that is
>>>> what the phrase means.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It turns out that "that is what the phrase means" is merely a false
>>> assumption.
>>
>> No, it is not. Knowledge about meanings of phrases that are not
>> defined in the opus where they are used is empirical knwoledge
>> that ultimately comes from observations. Meanings of individual
>> words and many phrases are documented in dictionaries. Other
>> phrases get their meanig from their constituents and constitution
>> in a way that is documented in grammar books. If you want a
>> meaning that cannot be found in dictionaries and grammar bookd
>> you need to define.
>>
>> In this particular case the phrase is "DD correctly simulated by
>> pure function HH". This phrase is a composite of two subphrases:
>> the first one is "DD" and the sencond one is "correctly simulated
>> by HH". This kind of phrases are used to identify something so
>> that something can be said about it without saying the same about
>> other things. The second part is needed if the first part is a
>> generic term that alone may denote both things intended to be
>> included and things intended to be excluded from the meaning
>> of the phrase. So the phrase "DD correctly simulated by pure
>> function HH" makes a distinction between those DD that are or
>> have been or will be a model of correct simulation by HH and
>> those that are not and nave not been and will not be. But the
>> former kind of DD and the latter kind of DD have no intrinsic
>> difference that would require exclusion of the latter form
>> the sentence. In particular, DD's ablility to reach its own
>> final state at line 06 does not depend on whther HH will ever
>> simulate it (correctly or otherwise.
>>
> 
> *Repeat until correct rebuttal*
> 
> DD correctly emulated by any HH that can possibly exist DOES NOT HALT
> DD correctly emulated by any HH that can possibly exist DOES NOT HALT
> DD correctly emulated by any HH that can possibly exist DOES NOT HALT

Because *HH* emulated by any HH that can possibly exist DOES NOT HALT

> 
> typedef int (*ptr)();  // ptr is pointer to int function in C
> 00       int HH(ptr p, ptr i);
> 01       int DD(ptr p)
> 02       {
> 03         int Halt_Status = HH(p, p);
> 04         if (Halt_Status)
> 05           HERE: goto HERE;
> 06         return Halt_Status;
> 07       }
> 
> _DD()
> [00001c22] 55         push ebp
> [00001c23] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> [00001c25] 51         push ecx
> [00001c26] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> [00001c29] 50         push eax        ; push DD 1c22
> [00001c2a] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> [00001c2d] 51         push ecx        ; push DD 1c22
> [00001c2e] e80ff7ffff call 00001342   ; call HH
> [00001c33] 83c408     add esp,+08
> [00001c36] 8945fc     mov [ebp-04],eax
> [00001c39] 837dfc00   cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
> [00001c3d] 7402       jz 00001c41
> [00001c3f] ebfe       jmp 00001c3f
> [00001c41] 8b45fc     mov eax,[ebp-04]
> [00001c44] 8be5       mov esp,ebp
> [00001c46] 5d         pop ebp
> [00001c47] c3         ret
> Size in bytes:(0038) [00001c47]
> 

-- 
Paradoxes in the relation between Creator and creature.
<http://www.wirholt.nl/English>.