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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Halting Problem is wrong two different ways
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2024 21:05:13 -0500
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On 6/4/2024 8:48 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 6/4/24 1:40 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 6/4/2024 3:28 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>> On 2024-06-03 18:14:39 +0000, olcott said:
>>>
>>>> On 6/3/2024 9:27 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-06-03 12:20:01 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/3/2024 4:42 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>> Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> PO's D(D) halts, as illustrated in various traces that have been 
>>>>>>>> posted here.
>>>>>>>> PO's H(D,D) returns 0 : [NOT halting] also as illustrated in 
>>>>>>>> various traces.
>>>>>>>> i.e. exactly as the Linz proof claims.  PO has acknowledged both 
>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>> results.  Same for the HH/DD variants.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You might imagine that's the end of the matter - PO failed.  :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's right, but PO just carries on anyway!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He has quite explicitly stated that false (0) is the correct 
>>>>>>> result for
>>>>>>> H(D,D) "even though D(D) halts".  I am mystified why anyone 
>>>>>>> continues to
>>>>>>> discuss the matter until he equally explicitly repudiates that 
>>>>>>> claim.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Deciders only compute the mapping *from their inputs* to their own
>>>>>> accept or reject state.
>>>>>
>>>>> That does not restrict what a problem statement can specify.
>>>>> If the computed mapping differs from the specified one the
>>>>> decider does not solve the problem.
>>>>
>>>> int sum(int x, int y) { return x + y; }
>>>> sum(2,3) cannot return the sum of 5 + 6.
>>>
>>> That does not restrict what a problem statement can specify.
>>> If the mapping computed by sum differs from the specified one
>>> the program sum does not solve the problem.
>>>
>>
>> On 6/3/2024 9:53 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>  > Because you keep on mentioning about DD Halting,
>>  > which IS about the direct execution of DD
>>
>> Only when one contradicts the definition of a decider that must
>> compute the mapping FROM ITS INPUTS BASED ON THE ACTUAL BEHAVIOR
>> OF THESE INPUTS (as measured by DD correctly simulated by HH).
> 
> But strings don't HAVE "Behavior", they only represent things that do.
> 

Turing Machine descriptions specify behavior to UTMs.

> And, for a Halt decider, that thing they represent is the program, whose 
> direct execution specifies the proper behavior of the input.
> 
> The DEFINITON IS NOT  "as measured by DD correctly simulated by HH", as 
> deciders, by their definiton, are trying to compute the mapping of their 
> input according to a defined function, which is a function of just that 
> input. Since that function doesn't know which "H' is going to try to 
> decide on it, it can't change its answer based on which H we ask.
> 
> Proper Deciders can not be asked "Subjective" questions, unless we 
> SPECIFICALLY define the mapping to include the decider as one of the 
> inputs, and at that point, the question actually ceases to be 
> subjective, as it becomes, what should THAT H say about this input, 
> which is back to an objective agian (since machines are deterministic, 
> so the definition of H tells us what H will answer to that question).
> 
>>
>> When we go ahead and contradict this definition then the
>> *HALTING PROBLEM IS STILL WRONG IN A DIFFERENT WAY*
> 
> Nope, YOU are wrong, because you
> 
>>
>> When D is defined to do the opposite of whatever yes/no
>> an answer that H provides then the counter-example input
>> is precisely isomorphic to the question:
>> Is this sentence: "This sentence is not true." true or false?
>> Thus that question and the HP question are both incorrect
>> because both yes and no are the wrong answer.
> 
> Nope, Just shows how small your mind is.
> 
> Proven elsewhere.,
> 
>>
>> The theory of computation may be ignorant of the details of
>> how the context of who is asked a question changes the meaning
>> of this question, none-the-less this cannot be ignored.
>> It is and remains incorrect for the theory of computation
>> to ignore this.
>>
> 
> But the question it asks is an OBJECTIVE question that doesn't depend on 
> who it is asked of.
> 

When H is asked about the behavior of a Machine that is programmed
to do the opposite of whatever it says then the context that it is H
that is being asked is an inherent aspect of the meaning of this
question and cannot be correctly ignored.

The theory of computation people are ignorant of how linguistic
context change the meaning of expressions REALLY IS NO EXCUSE.

> It is your own fault for trying to rephrase it incorrectly into a 
> subjective version.
> 
> Thus, you statment is just a deceitful lie.

You may have to go to Hell for calling me a liar when you know
that I believe what I say because this makes you a liar. I say
this for your own safety.

-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer