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Subject: Re: GUILTY. All 34 counts.
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2024 16:14:44 +1200
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On 2024-06-05 02:26:33 +0000, shawn said:
> On Wed, 05 Jun 2024 02:06:04 +0000, BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
>> On Jun 4, 2024 at 5:59:11 PM PDT, "Dimensional Traveler" <dtravel@sonic.net>
>> wrote:
>>> On 6/4/2024 9:00 AM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>>> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 6/3/2024 7:31 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>>>>> Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> May 31, 2024 at 7:43:16 PM PDT, Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Sat, 1 Jun 2024 10:54:32 +1200, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-31 10:46:00 +0000, FPP said:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/31/24 4:48 AM, trotsky wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/30/24 4:17 PM, FPP wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GUILTY. All 34 counts.
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I called it. Let the whining begin!
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yup... I was shooting for Friday.  Really surprised, since a half hour
>>>>>>>>>>>> before, the judge was shutting it down for the day.
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Trump the Chump's whining startedd immediately and his braindead
>>>>>>>>>>> supports declared "war" not long after.
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Not that this decision means anything in reality. The whole mess will
>>>>>>>>>>> drag on for years longer yet with numerous appeals, counter-appeals,
>>>>>>>>>>> etc. Trump the Chump and most of the witnesses will be dead of old age
>>>>>>>>>>> before it ends, and even then you'll probably have their kids trying to
>>>>>>>>>>> clear their names one way or another.
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Not that long but yes, it will likely go on for a couple of years.
>>>>>>>>>> There are two level of appeals at the NY state level and then Trump
>>>>>>>>>> can try to jump to the US Supreme Court if both levels of appeal fail
>>>>>>>>>> to overturn the verdict.
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> There's no direct appeal from state court to federal court. They have to
>>>>>>>>> find a federal issue to dispute.
>>>> 
>>>>>>>> There is a federal issue. The predicate crime that the state used to
>>>>>>>> bootstrap the state charges despite it being beyond the statute of
>>>>>>>> limitations was a federal crime, and one that both the DOJ and the FEC
>>>>>>>> had already looked at and determined there was no violation. So the
>>>>>>>> question of whether the entire basis of the state's case was valid is
>>>>>>>> a federal question.
>>>> 
>>>>>>> I am certainly not going to agree that the feds ever made a finding of no
>>>>>>> violation. Prosecutors never say that out loud, anyway, when there are no
>>>>>>> charges preferred against the target of the investigation. The FEC isn't
>>>>>>> doing its job if every entity those funds passed through didn't receive
>>>>>>> a letter in which they found campaign disclosure violations. Fines should
>>>>>>> have been issued.
>>>> 
>>>>>>> Do we know why prosecution was limited to Michael Cohen?
>>>> 
>>>>>>> Say, was Stormy Daniels herself obligated to make disclosure?
>>>> 
>>>>>>> I don't see how the issue is moot because the underlying crime can no
>>>>>>> longer be charged.
>>>> 
>>>>>>> Trump's complaints that Biden is behind the conspiracy are equal
>>>>>>> protection but I doubt there's an actual equal protection argument to
>>>>>>> make. Mark Levin's tweet, that I referenced elsewhere, had several due
>>>>>>> process arguments to make.
>>>> 
>>>>>>> But the issue of the state law itself cannot be contested in federal
>>>>>>> court.
>>>> 
>>>>>> Ok. The point BTR1701 made here has bothered me for days. I didn't track
>>>>>> down the language of the criminal statute Trump was charged under, but I
>>>>>> found descriptions of what the charges were. I'll assume it's consistent
>>>>>> with the law, else Trump would have gotten the charges thrown out.
>>>> 
>>>>>> 	In New York, in order for the charge of falsifying business
>>>>>> 	records to be bumped up to a felony, one must commit the crime
>>>>>> 	of falsifying business records when the "intent to defraud
>>>>>> 	includes an intent to commit another crime or to aid or conceal
>>>>>> 	the commission thereof."
>>>> 
>>>>>> https://www.factcheck.org/2023/04/whats-in-trumps-indictment/
>>>> 
>>>>>> To provide the case, the state doesn't prove that there was a violation
>>>>>> of the underlying law. The state proves intent to commit another crime,
>>>>>> or to aid or conceal the commission thereof.
>>>> 
>>>>>> The state must prove intent to commit the crime without, in fact,
>>>>>> proving that the underlying crime was committed?
>>>> 
>>>>>> Can one intend to commit a crime be proven without the crime having been
>>>>>> committed? The intent is the criminal act for the purpose of the
>>>>>> criminal charge of fraud based on proving intent in the underlying
>>>>>> crime?
>>>> 
>>>>>> I don't get it.
>>>> 
>>>>> Possession of tools to commit burglary.
>>>> 
>>>> I'm going to need a little more here to understand what the state must
>>>> prove. Do the police need to find evidence of what property was about to
>>>> be burgled? Otherwise I don't see how intent to commit the crime of
>>>> burglary could be proved.
>>> 
>>> I was meaning to point out that possession of the tools used to commit
>>> burglaries is, in and of itself, illegal in most jurisdictions.  There
>>> is no need to prove that there was a burglary committed or even an
>>> intent to commit one. Just having the tools to do so is illegal.
>> 
>> There has to be more than mere possession because every typical American
>> household contains the tools to commit burglary.
> 
> Isn't it an issue of having the tools on your person while outside the
> home? So it doesn't matter what you have at home.

So how would you get your newly purchased hammer back home from the store??

It's a ridiculous "law", if indeed it is actually one ... which 
wouldn't surprise me in the least, since it *is* America, which is full 
of rather ridiculous laws.