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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: How Partial Simulations correctly determine non-halting ---Should
 I quit Richard at this point?
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2024 17:48:10 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID: <v42jiq$3cg3t$32@i2pn2.org>
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On 6/8/24 5:38 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 6/8/2024 4:28 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 6/8/24 5:14 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 6/8/2024 3:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 6/8/24 4:52 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 6/8/2024 3:47 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/8/24 4:34 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 6/8/2024 3:23 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 6/8/24 1:10 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 6/8/2024 11:03 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 6/8/24 11:32 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/8/2024 10:15 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/8/24 11:07 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/8/2024 9:54 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/8/24 10:20 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/8/2024 9:10 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I HAVE pointed out what is missing, ANY set of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth-perserving operations from the accepted facts 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which will of course need to name the fact they are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working from) to your conclusion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The accepted facts are here
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) The x86 language
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) The notion of an x86 emulator
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> {The proof that No DDD correctly emulated by any x86
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   emulator H can possibly reach its own [00001df6] 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instruction}
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, how do you show this claim?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you have a tracing of the full INFINITE SET of possible 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hs?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is the set of possible execution traces of DDD correctly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulated by x86 emulator HH on the basis of the above
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accepted facts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe you are just clueless about these technical details
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are are trying to hide this with pure bluster.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00001de2] 55         push ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00001de3] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00001de5] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00001de8] 50         push eax         ; push DD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00001de9] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00001dec] 51         push ecx         ; push DD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00001ded] e890f5ffff call 00001382    ; call HH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00001df2] 83c408     add esp,+08
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00001df5] 5d         pop ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00001df6] c3         ret
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0021) [00001df6]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You keep disagreeing with the fact that DDD correctly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulated by x86 emulator HH only has one single correct
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> execution trace of repeating the fist seven lines until
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out-of-memory error.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But that is an INCORRECT trace per your definition,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The call HH instruction MUST be simulated into HH because 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that IS the behavior of the x86 instruction.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did I ever say that it is not?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> For the above DDD correctly emulated by x86 emulator HH
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the first seven instructions of DD keep repeating because
>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD keeps calling HH(DDD,DDD) to emulate itself again and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> again until HH/DDD hits out-of-memory exception.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So the x86 emulation of the code must go into HH(DDD,DDD)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It is pretty stupid to assume otherwise when HH is
>>>>>>>>>>> stipulated to be an x86 emulator.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Right, so why did you say otherwise?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I never said otherwise you simply "read" meanings that I didn't 
>>>>>>>>> say.
>>>>>>>>> this thread: [Should I quit Richard at this point?]
>>>>>>>>> stands alone and should not be interpreted within the
>>>>>>>>> context of anything else that I ever said.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, we are NOT to use your previous statements for earlier posts?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You keep on changing you mind, and not being clear. That shows 
>>>>>>>> your deceitful nature.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I must increasing narrow the focus of attention to ever
>>>>>>> get any closure on as many as one single point.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The one point now is that DD correctly simulated by HH
>>>>>>> proves that HH is correct to reject DD as non-halting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which is incorrect, because you are using the wrong definition of 
>>>>>> correct simulation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For three years every reviewer has essentially insisted that the
>>>>>>> correct measure of the behavior of DD is DD incorrectly simulated
>>>>>>> by HH. The behavior of the directly executed DD(DD) cannot possibly
>>>>>>> be achieved by DD correctly simulated by HH as the x86 machine-code
>>>>>>> of DD *conclusively proves BEYOND ALL POSSIBLE DOUBT*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nope, and if that is what your though, you are just an idiot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> When one disagrees with the execution trace that x86 code specifies
>>>>> one is essentially doing the same thing as disagreeing with 
>>>>> arithmetic.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And where does that say that the correct measure of the behavior of 
>>>> DD is DD incorrectly simulated?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I cut you off at your first big mistake so that we can focus
>>> on correcting this big mistake.
>>
>> And ignored the meaning of my statemert, and made you into a blantent 
>> LIAR.
>>
>>>
>>> *I can't address all of this point in one step because you*
>>> *have proven that even one step is too confusing for you*
>>>
>>> *I can't address all of this point in one step because you*
>>> *have proven that even one step is too confusing for you*
>>>
>>> *I can't address all of this point in one step because you*
>>> *have proven that even one step is too confusing for you*
>>> HERE IS STEP ONE
>>>
>>> _DD()
>>> [00001c22] 55         push ebp
>>> [00001c23] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>> [00001c25] 51         push ecx
>>> [00001c26] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>> [00001c29] 50         push eax      ; push DD 1c22
>>> [00001c2a] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>> [00001c2d] 51         push ecx      ; push DD 1c22
>>> [00001c2e] e80ff7ffff call 00001342 ; call HH
>>>
>>> *When DD is correctly simulated by simulating halt decider HH*
>>>
>>> New slave_stack at:10306d
>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:113075
>>>   machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
>>>   address   address   data      code       language
>>>   ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
>>> [00001c22][00113061][00113065] 55         push ebp         ; begin DD
>>> [00001c23][00113061][00113065] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>> [00001c25][0011305d][00103031] 51         push ecx
>>> [00001c26][0011305d][00103031] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>> [00001c29][00113059][00001c22] 50         push eax         ; push DD
>>> [00001c2a][00113059][00001c22] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>> [00001c2d][00113055][00001c22] 51         push ecx         ; push DD
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