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From: Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: British (european?) kitchen counter electric outlets
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2024 10:29:31 -0700
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On 6/10/2024 2:16 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 10/06/2024 01:41, Don Y wrote:
>> On 6/9/2024 3:50 PM, TTman wrote:
>>>> Yes, I've seen that.  And, they are *huge* (comparatively speaking;
>>>> a duplex receptacle, here, is a ~1x~3 inch device about an inch thick).
>>>>
>>>> Ours also reside *in* the wall; I seem to remember the ones in England
>>>> were "on" the wall (?)
>>>
>>> In the UK we have slim sockets now.... protruding maybe 2mm from the wall. 
>>
>> So, they fit *into* the wall?  Is the wiring concealed in the wall and
>> routed to the outlet(s) from within?
> 
> Remember that in the UK most older houses are brick built with plastered walls 
> so there is a fair amount of effort chasing a socket box into the wall. 
> Historically a lot of ring mains wiring also ran behind the skirting board at 
> the base of the wall and sockets were let into that.

Here, most homes are stucco over masonry.  So, any exterior walls are
*harder* than "clay brick" (e.g., concrete block -- try drilling/cutting
through the STONES in the mix).

Plaster-over-lath is rare as modern construction techniques favor
skin-coated drywall.  Exterior walls are usually offset from the masonry
with just 1" furring strips with no added insulation.

[I've seriously considered furring out the exterior walls just so I can
ADD insulation; once the masonry shell gets heated up, it drives the
interior temperature.  It would also give me the opportunity to be
rid of the "textured" walls that are so common, here]

Old work is virtually impossible as most homes are built on slabs (no
basement) and many have flat "frontier style" roofs (no attic).  Running
new wiring means some amount of demo-work.  Or, running the wiring
on the exterior of the building (which looks REALLY tacky!)

>> There is a product here called "Wiremold" that can be entirely surface
>> mounted (junction boxes as well as cable runs).  But, it would typically
>> not be found in most homes (kitchens).  A "Plugmold" product provides
>> similarly (permanently) mounted "outlet strips"
> 
> Surface mounted boxes are generally used in garages and utility rooms or in 
> positions that are out of sight (like under counters behind fridges).
> 
>> Basements/garages/exteriors will often have surface mounted junction boxes
>> with cable runs in EMT or rigid conduit, usually required by local code
>> (to protect the wiring).  E.g., I run all of my exterior network cabling
>> in EMT with water-tight fittings as it makes for a cleaner looking installation
>> and affords some protections against physical damage.
>>
>>> Earlier types protruded around 10mm and before that ( we called them surface 
>>> mount) they protruded 25mm-40 mm.Our duplex sockets measure 6" wide x 3"high
>>
>> As I said, a duplex receptacle would be about 1"x3" and sell for as
>> little as 77c or as much as ~$10 (QTY 1 -- though most would be purchased
>> in much larger quantities) depending on the features desired (ampacity,
>> cosmetics, tamper resistance, etc.)
> 
> You can get flush surface mount units but you have to chase that much further 
> into brickwork to fit the it in. The old way with ~10mm protruding was the 
> least worst option and is still common. New build with a lot of stud walling 
> tends to have more modern flush mount.

But, presumably, for new work (or full remodels) that would have been baked
into the plan (?).

>> You can (just barely -- and with many qualifications) install one into
>> a Jbox of ~10 cu in internal volume.  A single gang device typically
>> exposes a 2x4" opening, covered by a 3.5x5" decorative plate
> 
> It takes a while with a chisel to knock a hole big enough for a UK mains socket 
> out of a wall which is why most remain 10mm out to this day. The plaster tends 
> to fall off nearby so it is always messy to install one.

So, you preserve an old "shell" and, when you modernize it (electric, plumbing,
gas, etc.) you skimp on that effort?  As if it will be easier to do , later?
Wouldn't you PLAN on having to take on these tasks in order to make that
shell habitable, by modern standards?