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From: Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: A collection of monographs on high accuracy electronics
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2024 03:12:08 -0000 (UTC)
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JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 15:14:40 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> 
>> On 2024-06-09 21:43, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>> On 2024-06-09 20:55, JM wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 00:29:17 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs 
>>>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 18:09:24 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
>>>>>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 6/9/24 19:02, ehsjr wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 6/7/2024 9:14 PM, JM wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> A collection of monographs on high accuracy electronics written 
>>>>>>>>>> by Mr.
>>>>>>>>>> Chris Daykin, following his career predominantly in metrology.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately Chris will be unable to complete the unfinished
>>>>>>>>>> monographs (having started end of life care) but there is plenty of
>>>>>>>>>> interest to any analogue engineer.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> https://1drv.ms/b/c/1af24d72a509cd48/EZhO_rP5-glDmxtc4ZHycvYBhrsqmyC5tuZjt2NFFsS0gQ?e=Wq2Yj0
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>>>> Ed
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I have an issue with his definition of resistor noise power
>>>>>>>> as the product of open-circuit noise voltage and short-circuit
>>>>>>>> current. That makes no sense.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> There's more than that, probably, but that just jumped out at
>>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Jeroen Belleman
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It?s four times too high, for a start.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "It is shown elsewhere [1] that the noise power is four times the heat
>>>>>> energy which would flow down the conductors
>>>>>> from a warm source resistor to a matching cold resistor."
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Which, if true, would solve all our energy problems, except that
>>>>> thermodynamic systems would all be unstable.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The thermal noise power produced by a resistor into a matched load is kT
>>>>> per hertz.
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Sure, which is what he states.  By mentioning a hot and cold resistor 
>>>> he makes it clear that net energy flow is from hot to cold, and that 
>>>> the T refers to the hot source.
>>>> 
>>> But apparently he says that it's four times larger than that.
>>> 
>>> I'm not making a microsoft account just to download the PDF, so if you 
>>> want to discuss it further, you could email it to me.
>>> 
>>> Cheers
>>> 
>>> Phil Hobbs
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> Bill was kind enough to send me a copy (thanks again, Bill), and right 
>> there on P. 374, the author says,
>> 
>> Pn = 4kTB
>> 
>> which is a factor of four too high.
>> 
> 
> No it isn't. He is calculating the thermal noise power dissipated in an
> unloaded resistor - something (or at least the related noise voltage)
> which is actually required in the design process of a
> transducer/amplifier low S/N system.  No engineer outwith some
> RF/microwave areas (such are specifing antenna noise temperature) is
> remotely interested in your definition of noise power as the maximum
> power which can be extracted from a thermal source (ie by a conjugate
> source match).  The vast majority of engineers (if asked to specify
> resistor noise power) would present exactly the same equation as Daykin,
> because they are interested in noise voltage (or current) only.  

John, I’m sorry that your friend is dying. The fact that it comes to us all
doesn’t make it any easier to take. 

I’m reading his stuff, so far with interest, and have zero interest in
rubbishing it, or him. 

You said yourself that it was unfinished, which means in part that he
didn’t get the chance to check the final version for errors. 

This one error doesn’t mean that it’s worthless, just unfinished. 

My first edition contained 107 errors that I know about, which fortunately
I was able to fix in later printings. So believe me, I understand the
problem. 

Cheers 

Phil Hobbs 


-- 
Dr Philip C D Hobbs  Principal Consultant  ElectroOptical Innovations LLC /
Hobbs ElectroOptics  Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics