Path: ...!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DDD correctly simulated by HH cannot possibly halt
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2024 10:17:34 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 147
Message-ID: <v4ce6f$1mi5i$3@dont-email.me>
References: <v428vv$2no74$2@dont-email.me> <v43ib7$38hnd$1@dont-email.me>
 <v44da3$3i5jo$1@dont-email.me> <v46b4u$99o6$1@dont-email.me>
 <v474uv$ggn5$8@dont-email.me> <v490b8$v2i4$1@dont-email.me>
 <v4a192$157ic$4@dont-email.me> <v4bi7n$1htdn$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2024 17:17:35 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="6f170c39f5487c8533188545300f883a";
	logging-data="1788082"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+hGkoo7sM1qdTSatLHZYF4"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:B5HlapBF6vOcRLOpIw4M29OmlDg=
In-Reply-To: <v4bi7n$1htdn$1@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-US
Bytes: 6822

On 6/12/2024 2:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
> On 2024-06-11 17:24:50 +0000, olcott said:
> 
>> On 6/11/2024 3:02 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>> On 2024-06-10 15:09:19 +0000, olcott said:
>>>
>>>> On 6/10/2024 2:48 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-06-09 14:13:23 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/9/2024 1:33 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>> Op 08.jun.2024 om 20:47 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>> Before we can get to the behavior of the directly executed
>>>>>>>> DD(DD) we must first see that the Sipser approved criteria
>>>>>>>> have been met:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 
>>>>>>>> 10/13/2022>
>>>>>>>> If simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its input D
>>>>>>>> until H correctly determines that its simulated D would never
>>>>>>>> stop running unless aborted then
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> H can abort its simulation of D and correctly report that D
>>>>>>>> specifies a non-halting sequence of configurations.
>>>>>>>> </MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim 
>>>>>>>> words10/13/2022>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10/14/2022 7:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>>  > I don't think that is the shell game. PO really /has/ an H
>>>>>>>>  > (it's trivial to do for this one case) that correctly determines
>>>>>>>>  > that P(P) *would* never stop running *unless* aborted.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Try to show how this DD correctly simulated by any HH ever
>>>>>>>> stops running without having its simulation aborted by HH.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Stopping at your first error. So, we can focus on it. Your are 
>>>>>>> asking a question that contradicts itself.
>>>>>>> A correct simulation of HH that aborts itself, should simulate up 
>>>>>>> to the point where the simulated HH aborts. That is logically 
>>>>>>> impossible. So, either it is a correct simulation and then we see 
>>>>>>> that the simulated HH aborts and returns, or the simulation is 
>>>>>>> incorrect, because it assumes incorrectly that things that happen 
>>>>>>> (abort) do not happen.
>>>>>>> A premature conclusion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a clearer explanation now that I have gone through
>>>>>> all of Mikko's posts: (you must know C to understand this)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> typedef void (*ptr)(); // pointer to void function
>>>>>>
>>>>>> void HHH(ptr P, ptr I)
>>>>>> {
>>>>>>    P(I);
>>>>>>    return;
>>>>>> }
>>>>>>
>>>>>> void DDD(int (*x)())
>>>>>> {
>>>>>>    HHH(x, x);
>>>>>>    return;
>>>>>> }
>>>>>>
>>>>>> int main()
>>>>>> {
>>>>>>    HHH(DDD,DDD);
>>>>>> }
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the above Neither DDD nor HHH ever reach their own return
>>>>>> statement thus never halt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When HHH is a simulating halt decider then HHH sees that
>>>>>
>>>>> As the code above shows, HHH is not a simulating halt decider:
>>>>> (a) HHH does not simulate, (b) HHH does not decide.
>>>>> Consequently, you are talking about nothing.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes that is correct. I begin with ordinary infinite recursion.
>>>> If my reviewer does not understand that then they lack sufficient
>>>> technical competence to review my work.
>>>>
>>>> After they first understand infinite recursion then I show how
>>>> infinite recursion is isomorphic to nested simulation.
>>>
>>> To proove an isomorphism required much more effort that proving merely
>>> what you need to prove. It is easier to prove a claim about recursive
>>> calls and then transform that proof to a proof about nested simulation.
>>> Other aspects of an isomorphism are not relevant so hardly worth of a
>>> proof.
>>>
>>
>> void DDD(int (*x)())
>> {
>>    HH(x, x);
>> }
>>
>> _DDD()
>> [00001de2] 55         push ebp
>> [00001de3] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>> [00001de5] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>> [00001de8] 50         push eax         ; push DDD
>> [00001de9] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>> [00001dec] 51         push ecx         ; push DDD
>> [00001ded] e890f5ffff call 00001382    ; call HH
>> [00001df2] 83c408     add esp,+08
>> [00001df5] 5d         pop ebp
>> [00001df6] c3         ret
>> Size in bytes:(0021) [00001df6]
>>
>> DDD correctly simulated by HH cannot possibly reach its own
>> simulated "ret" instruction at [00001df6] and terminate normally
>> and no one can possibly show the detailed steps of how it could.
> 
> You cannot prove that without restricting x.
> 

x is merely a parameter to DDD and we are only talking about the
case where this parameter has the value of DDD AKA the halting
problem counter-example input.

There is no mapping from the input to HH(DDD,DDD) to
the behavior of the directly executed DDD(DDD) through
any sequence of finite string transformation rules.

All deciders are only required to compute the mapping
FROM THEIR INPUTS, the behavior of DDD(DDD) has no
mapping from the inputs to HH(DDD,DDD).

If I am wrong then a specific sequence of steps of
DDD correctly simulated by HH where DDD terminates
normally can be provided.

One can presume that HH must report on the behavior
of the directly executed DDD(DDD) yet when one is
required to show the steps of the computed mapping one fails.

Because deciders only compute the mapping from their
inputs then HH(DDD,DDD) is not allowed to report on
the behavior of the directly executed DDD(DDD) because
there is no mapping.


-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer