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Path: ...!weretis.net!feeder9.news.weretis.net!news.nk.ca!rocksolid2!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> Newsgroups: sci.logic,comp.theory Subject: Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 22:45:23 -0400 Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org) Message-ID: <v4gas3$3tn6r$4@i2pn2.org> References: <v44i60$3jnc8$1@dont-email.me> <v4508h$3egpa$11@i2pn2.org> <v45pfb$3ph0$1@dont-email.me> <v45q1d$3h641$7@i2pn2.org> <v45qvp$41qf$1@dont-email.me> <v46na2$3ifov$2@i2pn2.org> <v478g9$hcgj$1@dont-email.me> <v48gh2$3kcoe$2@i2pn2.org> <v4a1jk$15ems$1@dont-email.me> <v4am8g$3n8ob$1@i2pn2.org> <v4aufn$1apao$1@dont-email.me> <v4b1gd$3nf9m$8@i2pn2.org> <v4b2sa$1f89t$1@dont-email.me> <v4b32m$3nf9m$10@i2pn2.org> <v4b45c$1f89t$3@dont-email.me> <v4c12p$3oop0$2@i2pn2.org> <v4cfhu$1nhr0$1@dont-email.me> <v4dc5j$3qbnc$5@i2pn2.org> <v4dfdo$1te0b$2@dont-email.me> <v4dg4v$3qbnd$3@i2pn2.org> <v4digg$1tsdf$4@dont-email.me> <v4djfe$3qbnd$6@i2pn2.org> <v4djtr$1tsdf$7@dont-email.me> <v4dl2i$3qbnc$9@i2pn2.org> <v4dlo1$22cmj$1@dont-email.me> <v4dmam$3qbnc$11@i2pn2.org> <v4dmuk$22cmj$3@dont-email.me> <v4do86$3qbnd$10@i2pn2.org> <v4docm$22o4a$1@dont-email.me> <v4dqb6$3qbnc$14@i2pn2.org> <v4dqtt$2379j$1@dont-email.me> <v4el9i$3rsd6$1@i2pn2.org> <v4esdh$28g4v$7@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2024 02:45:23 -0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: i2pn2.org; logging-data="4119771"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org"; posting-account="diqKR1lalukngNWEqoq9/uFtbkm5U+w3w6FQ0yesrXg"; User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird In-Reply-To: <v4esdh$28g4v$7@dont-email.me> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0 Content-Language: en-US Bytes: 7731 Lines: 153 On 6/13/24 9:32 AM, olcott wrote: > On 6/13/2024 6:30 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >> On 6/13/24 12:01 AM, olcott wrote: >>> On 6/12/2024 10:51 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>> On 6/12/24 11:17 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>> On 6/12/2024 10:15 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>> On 6/12/24 10:53 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>> On 6/12/2024 9:42 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>> On 6/12/24 10:32 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 6/12/2024 9:21 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 6/12/24 10:01 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 6/12/2024 8:53 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/12/24 9:37 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/12/2024 7:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope. The concept and definition of natural numbers exist, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but doesn't derive from any part of the "universe". >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Note, they don't "exist" as a substance, only as a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> concept, and the universe is substance. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> OF EVERYTHING IF THERE IS NOTHING THAT MAKES AN EXPRESSION >>>>>>>>>>>>> OF LANGUAGE X TRUE THENN (THEN AND ONLY THEN) X HAS NO >>>>>>>>>>>>> TRUTH-MAKER. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> And how can we tell that there is nothing that makes the >>>>>>>>>>>> expression of language true? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What makes the expression: "a frog" true? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I don't know, what makes the expression: "a frog" true? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It could be if put besides the picture of a frog, or a cage >>>>>>>>>> holding one, or a box with a disection kit. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Do you mean that Russel's Teapot has a truth-maker, because >>>>>>>>>>>> we can not show that there is nothing that makes it true? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Truth need not be known. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Then why do you insisit it must be provable? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If of EVERYTHING there is NOTHING that makes an expression >>>>>>>>>>> of language X true then X is untrue. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Does that only include things in that universe, or of any >>>>>>>>>> universe? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I changed my freaking words because you had trouble with the other >>>>>>>>> words. WHEN I CHANGE THE WORDS TO MAKE THEM CLEARER I AM NOT >>>>>>>>> FREAKING >>>>>>>>> USING THE ORIGINAL FREAKING WORDS. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And thus show that you don't have the mental ability to properly >>>>>>>> communicate. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That is your excuse for not freaking paying attention? >>>>>>> IT WAS YOU THAT DID NOT PAY ATTENTION. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I changed the words in my paper based on your feedback. >>>>>>> I have always used the term UNIVERSE to exactly mean EVERYTHING. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If of EVERYTHING there is NOTHING that makes an expression >>>>>>> of language X true then X is untrue. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> WHich just means you have the problem of Naive Set Theory. There >>>>>> is not one "Universe" that is everything. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *THERE IS A FREAKING EVERYTHING* >>>>> >>>> >>>> But you can't just accept everything. That is what Russel proved >>>> about Naive Set Theory. >>>> >>>> No finite logic can handle the magnatude of a theory that actually >>>> tries to encompase EVERYTHING. >>> >>> So you disagree that there is an EVERYTHING. >>> IS THAT ALL YOU KNOW HOW TO DO IS DISAGREE? >>> >> >> No, there is a concept of "Everything" but it is not very usable as a >> single unified object because parts of it are inconsistant with other >> parts of it. >> > > If of EVERYTHING there is NOTHING that does X then X cannot be done. The problem is that the logic of "everything" can't do as much as the logic of a restricted set, if anything at all. For example, in the mahematic of finite numbers (a+b)+c = a+(b+c). When we add infintes to the mix, we loose that rule. Thus, when you try to make a system include EVERYTHING, you lose a lot of the rules you want to use for the more normal cases. This is one of the things that broke Naive Set Theory, by allowing a set to be anything, we lost all the rules to keep things organized. Thus, trying to make a SINGLE UNIFIED logic of everything doesn't work, as the individual pieces of everything mignt be inconsistant with other pieces of that everything. > >> You just don't seem to be able to understand these sorts of abstract >> concepts, which is why you have your problems. > > I understand them at a higher level of abstraction than you are > currently capable of and you have no correct reasoning to show > otherwise. I don't think so, or you would be able to start to break down you statement to things finer. You are stuck at just one level and can't move. > > Most of the best experts in truth-maker theory make this same mistake > because they define their terms to have subtle incoherence that is > too abstract to be noticed by them. > > *These definitions prove that every truth has a truthmaker* > > When we ask the question: What is a truthmaker? > The generic answer is whatever makes an expression of language true <is> > its truthmaker. Except that not all things CAN have a truth maker as you eventually get to a root idea that doesn't have a truthmaker, not even a statement that makes it its own truth maker, as THAT statement needs a truth make. > > If of everything there is nothing that makes expression of language X > true then X is untrue. > > X may be untrue because X is false. In that case ~X has a truthmaker. > > If neither X nor ~X has a truthmaker then X is not a truth-bearer. > > So, what makes the truthmakers truthmakers, you need a more fundamental truth maker, which take you to infinite depth.