Path: ...!feed.opticnetworks.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2024 07:34:04 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <v4hdbs$2sdqr$3@dont-email.me>
References: <v45tec$4q15$1@dont-email.me> <v48jv2$se9c$1@dont-email.me>
 <v49dge$3kcoe$5@i2pn2.org> <v4a0hs$157ic$3@dont-email.me>
 <v4ak5o$3kcoe$6@i2pn2.org> <v4am8r$19edk$1@dont-email.me>
 <v4apjs$19rnv$1@dont-email.me> <v4arp0$1a7uo$1@dont-email.me>
 <v4b1c3$3nf9n$3@i2pn2.org> <v4b50m$1f89t$5@dont-email.me>
 <v4c12r$3oop0$3@i2pn2.org> <v4cjl7$1o4b4$1@dont-email.me>
 <v4d991$3qbnc$1@i2pn2.org> <v4da12$1sioe$1@dont-email.me>
 <v4dbmf$3qbnc$3@i2pn2.org> <v4dcd6$1sioe$3@dont-email.me>
 <v4df0h$3qbnd$1@i2pn2.org> <v4dhf5$1tsdf$2@dont-email.me>
 <v4dja1$3qbnd$5@i2pn2.org> <v4djhf$1tsdf$6@dont-email.me>
 <v4dk7b$3qbnc$8@i2pn2.org> <v4dl3b$225kb$1@dont-email.me>
 <v4dn5u$3qbnd$8@i2pn2.org> <v4dop4$22o4a$2@dont-email.me>
 <v4dq07$3qbnc$12@i2pn2.org> <v4dqq0$2353n$1@dont-email.me>
 <v4el9m$3rsd6$3@i2pn2.org> <v4f3ec$2akmh$2@dont-email.me>
 <v4g65a$3tn6q$1@i2pn2.org> <v4g6vr$2ic0g$1@dont-email.me>
 <v4gc0b$3tn6r$6@i2pn2.org> <v4gcjc$2msea$1@dont-email.me>
 <v4gvig$3uj2s$3@i2pn2.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2024 14:34:05 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="e98c84ba8c24dba675dc413b0edf993a";
	logging-data="3028827"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19dm3CNZfJEN7pAJ+loD7On"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:ekay3yDgn78lrUQUPRGme8Vjl9E=
In-Reply-To: <v4gvig$3uj2s$3@i2pn2.org>
Content-Language: en-US
Bytes: 4549

On 6/14/2024 3:38 AM, joes wrote:
> Am Thu, 13 Jun 2024 22:14:52 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>> On 6/13/2024 10:04 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 6/13/24 9:39 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 6/13/2024 8:24 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 6/13/24 11:32 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is contingent upon you to show the exact steps of how H computes
>>>>>> the mapping from the x86 machine language finite string input to
>>>>>> H(D,D) using the finite string transformation rules specified by the
>>>>>> semantics of the x86 programming language that reaches the behavior
>>>>>> of the directly executed D(D)
>>>>>>
>>>>> Why? I don't claim it can.
>>>>>
>>>> That means that H cannot even be asked the question:
>>>> "Does D halt on its input?"
>>>
>>> WHy not? After all, H does what it does, the PERSON we ask is the
>>> programmer.
>>>
>> *When H and D have a pathological relationship to each other*
>> There is no way to encode any H such that it can be asked: Does D(D)
>> halt?
 >
> That is the question that H answers for every other input.
>

For every other input M that does not have a pathological
relationship between M and H the direct execution of M(M)
has the same behavior as M correctly simulated by H.

*I just wrote this code to verify it*
HH1(DD,DD) reports on the behavior of DD(DD).

>> You must see this from the POV of H or you won't get it.
>> H cannot read your theory of computation textbooks, it only knows what
>> it directly sees, its actual input.

> And it doesn't need to know more, the behaviour of D is completely
> specified by its transition table and input (which happens to be itself).
> 

This is a different thing than the thing I have been talking about.
It is impossible to even ask H(D,D) about the behavior of D(D)
because of the pathological relationship that H has to D.

The algorithm for H has been rewritten since three years ago, H(D,D)
is now called HH(DD,DD). H1(D,D) does correctly report on the behavior 
of D(D). H(D,D) cannot correctly report on the behavior of D(D) because
it is not and cannot even be asked about that behavior.

>> If there is no possible way for H to transform its input into the
>> behavior of D(D) then H cannot be asked about the behavior of D(D).
> It only means it doesn't give the right answer, when given D(D) as input.
> It was specified to answer for all machines.
> 
> Also I'm not He.
> 

OK

-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer