Path: ...!feeds.phibee-telecom.net!2.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2024 21:06:33 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <v4isva$392jh$2@dont-email.me>
References: <v45tec$4q15$1@dont-email.me> <v4apjs$19rnv$1@dont-email.me>
 <v4arp0$1a7uo$1@dont-email.me> <v4b1c3$3nf9n$3@i2pn2.org>
 <v4b50m$1f89t$5@dont-email.me> <v4c12r$3oop0$3@i2pn2.org>
 <v4cjl7$1o4b4$1@dont-email.me> <v4d991$3qbnc$1@i2pn2.org>
 <v4da12$1sioe$1@dont-email.me> <v4dbmf$3qbnc$3@i2pn2.org>
 <v4dcd6$1sioe$3@dont-email.me> <v4df0h$3qbnd$1@i2pn2.org>
 <v4dhf5$1tsdf$2@dont-email.me> <v4dja1$3qbnd$5@i2pn2.org>
 <v4djhf$1tsdf$6@dont-email.me> <v4dk7b$3qbnc$8@i2pn2.org>
 <v4dl3b$225kb$1@dont-email.me> <v4dn5u$3qbnd$8@i2pn2.org>
 <v4dop4$22o4a$2@dont-email.me> <v4dq07$3qbnc$12@i2pn2.org>
 <v4dqq0$2353n$1@dont-email.me> <v4el9m$3rsd6$3@i2pn2.org>
 <v4f3ec$2akmh$2@dont-email.me> <v4g65a$3tn6q$1@i2pn2.org>
 <v4g6vr$2ic0g$1@dont-email.me> <v4gc0b$3tn6r$6@i2pn2.org>
 <v4gcjc$2msea$1@dont-email.me> <v4geab$3tn6r$8@i2pn2.org>
 <v4gg0s$2nim8$2@dont-email.me> <v4ha63$3v16r$2@i2pn2.org>
 <v4hfq9$2sdqr$5@dont-email.me> <v4ijlc$kqh$1@i2pn2.org>
 <v4injg$348ha$1@dont-email.me> <v4iraj$kqh$4@i2pn2.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2024 04:06:35 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="020d44455d70acf7231aebb6a85d124b";
	logging-data="3443313"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18EMIP54GVFiSl2toeUnagV"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:ws23XJ9DGjUBCqPwnOsjUwouYX0=
In-Reply-To: <v4iraj$kqh$4@i2pn2.org>
Content-Language: en-US
Bytes: 4513

On 6/14/2024 8:38 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 6/14/24 8:34 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 6/14/2024 6:27 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 6/14/24 9:15 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 6/14/2024 6:39 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 6/14/24 12:13 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No it is more than that.
>>>>>> H cannot even be asked the question:
>>>>>> Does D(D) halt?
>>>>>
>>>>> No, you just don't understand the proper meaning of "ask" when 
>>>>> applied to a deterministic entity.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> When H and D have a pathological relationship to each
>>>> other then H(D,D) is not being asked about the behavior
>>>> of D(D). H1(D,D) has no such pathological relationship
>>>> thus D correctly simulated by H1 is the behavior of D(D).
>>>
>>> OF course it is. The nature of the input doesn't affet the form of 
>>> the question that H is supposed to answer.
>>>
>>
>> The textbook asks the question.
>> The data cannot possibly do that.
>>
> 
> But the data doesn't need to do it, as the program specifictions define it.
> 
> Now, if H was supposed to be a "Universal Problem Decider", then we 
> would need to somehow "encode" the goal of H determining that a correct 
> (and complete) simulation of its input would need to reach a final 
> state, but I see no issue with defining a way to encode that.
> 
>> You already said that H cannot possibly map its
>> input to the behavior of D(D).
> 
> Right, it is impossible for H to itself compute that behavior and give 
> an answer.
> 
> That doesn't mean we can't encode the question.
> 
>>
>> We need to stay focused on this one single point until you
>> fully get it. Unlike the other two respondents you do have
>> the capacity to understand this.
>>
>> You keep expecting H to read your computer science
>> textbooks.
>>
> 
> No, I expect its PROGRAMMER to have done that, which clearly you haven't 
> done.
> 
> Programs don't read their requirements, the perform the actions they 
> were programmed to do, and if the program is correct, it will get the 
> right answer. If it doesn't get the right answer, then the programmer 
> erred in saying it meet the requirements.
> 

I am only going to talk to you in the one thread about
this, it is too difficult material to understand outside
of a single chain of thought.

-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer