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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2024 21:25:53 -0500
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On 6/14/2024 9:16 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 6/14/24 9:59 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 6/14/2024 8:38 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 6/14/24 8:34 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 6/14/2024 6:27 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 6/14/24 9:15 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/14/2024 6:39 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 6/14/24 12:13 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No it is more than that.
>>>>>>>> H cannot even be asked the question:
>>>>>>>> Does D(D) halt?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, you just don't understand the proper meaning of "ask" when 
>>>>>>> applied to a deterministic entity.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When H and D have a pathological relationship to each
>>>>>> other then H(D,D) is not being asked about the behavior
>>>>>> of D(D). H1(D,D) has no such pathological relationship
>>>>>> thus D correctly simulated by H1 is the behavior of D(D).
>>>>>
>>>>> OF course it is. The nature of the input doesn't affet the form of 
>>>>> the question that H is supposed to answer.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The textbook asks the question.
>>>> The data cannot possibly do that.
>>>>
>>>
>>> But the data doesn't need to do it, as the program specifictions 
>>> define it.
>>>
>>
>> Did you know that the code itself cannot read these specifications?
>> The specifications say {draw a square circle}, the code says huh?
> 
> And what make you think it needs to?
> 
> You are just showing a TOTAL IGNORANCE of the field of prgramming.
> 
> did the x86utm program write itself after you showing it the 
> specifications?
> 
>>
>>> Now, if H was supposed to be a "Universal Problem Decider", then we 
>>
>> I don't have time for an infinite conversation.
>> H is ONLY defined to be a D decider.
> 
> It needs to be at least a D Halting Decider which has the same 
> requirement, just restricted to the class of programs built on the 
> template D.
> 
> And that means H doesn't need to "read" the problem statement either.
> 
> So, you are just showing your stupidity.
> 
>>
>>> would need to somehow "encode" the goal of H determining that a 
>>> correct (and complete) simulation of its input would need to reach a 
>>> final state, but I see no issue with defining a way to encode that.
>>>
>>>> You already said that H cannot possibly map its
>>>> input to the behavior of D(D).
>>>
>>> Right, it is impossible for H to itself compute that behavior and 
>>> give an answer.
>>>
>>
>> NO !!! It is impossible for anyone or anything to provide
>> a correct answer to a question THAT THEY ARE NOT BEING ASKED.
>>
> 
> OF course they can. For instance, you can solve a maze without knowing 
> that this is the task, if you are given an instruction sheet telling you 
> what moves to make.
> 
> Programs don't "know" what they are doing, they are just "dumb" 
> automatons that do exact as they are programmed to act.
> 
>>> That doesn't mean we can't encode the question.
>>>
>>
>> Give it your best shot, it must be encoded in C.
> 
> Why?
> 
> C is not a good language to express requirements.
> 
>>
>>>>
>>>> We need to stay focused on this one single point until you
>>>> fully get it. Unlike the other two respondents you do have
>>>> the capacity to understand this.
>>>>
>>>> You keep expecting H to read your computer science
>>>> textbooks.
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, I expect its PROGRAMMER to have done that, which clearly you 
>>> haven't done.
>>>
>> The spec says {CAD system that draws square circles}
>> The programmer say WTF!
> 
> But there isn't a contradition like that in the specification of Halting.
> 
>>
>>> Programs don't read their requirements, the perform the actions they 
>>> were programmed to do, 
>>
>> There is no way to encode H to even see the behavior of D(D)
>> when H and D have the pathological relationship.
>>
>> That is the dumbed down version of H cannot map its finite
>> string x86 machine code to the behavior of D(D).
> 
> But the map exists, so we are allowed to ask to compute it.
> 

There is no map from the input to H(D,D) to the behavior of D(D)

> Of course, one possible answer is that it can not be done, but for that 
> answer to be correct, we need to show that it actually can not be done, 
> which the Turing Proof does.
> 
It is IMPOSSIBLE TO EVEN ASK THE QUESTION.

You agreed that there is no map.
You fail to understand that this means
THE QUESTION CANNOT EVEN BE ASKED.
THIS IS YOUR SHORT-COMING AND NOT MY MISTAKE.


-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer