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Path: ...!news.nobody.at!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic Subject: Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) --- Truth Itself is not Broken. Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2024 22:39:00 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 113 Message-ID: <v4j2ck$39ub0$1@dont-email.me> References: <v45tec$4q15$1@dont-email.me> <v4d991$3qbnc$1@i2pn2.org> <v4da12$1sioe$1@dont-email.me> <v4dbmf$3qbnc$3@i2pn2.org> <v4dcd6$1sioe$3@dont-email.me> <v4df0h$3qbnd$1@i2pn2.org> <v4dhf5$1tsdf$2@dont-email.me> <v4dja1$3qbnd$5@i2pn2.org> <v4djhf$1tsdf$6@dont-email.me> <v4dk7b$3qbnc$8@i2pn2.org> <v4dl3b$225kb$1@dont-email.me> <v4dn5u$3qbnd$8@i2pn2.org> <v4dop4$22o4a$2@dont-email.me> <v4dq07$3qbnc$12@i2pn2.org> <v4dqq0$2353n$1@dont-email.me> <v4el9m$3rsd6$3@i2pn2.org> <v4f3ec$2akmh$2@dont-email.me> <v4g65a$3tn6q$1@i2pn2.org> <v4g6vr$2ic0g$1@dont-email.me> <v4gc0b$3tn6r$6@i2pn2.org> <v4gcjc$2msea$1@dont-email.me> <v4geab$3tn6r$8@i2pn2.org> <v4gg0s$2nim8$2@dont-email.me> <v4ha63$3v16r$2@i2pn2.org> <v4hfq9$2sdqr$5@dont-email.me> <v4ijlc$kqh$1@i2pn2.org> <v4injg$348ha$1@dont-email.me> <v4iraj$kqh$4@i2pn2.org> <v4isva$392jh$2@dont-email.me> <v4itis$kqh$7@i2pn2.org> <v4iutm$39bc0$1@dont-email.me> <v4ivig$kqh$9@i2pn2.org> <v4ivti$39gh7$2@dont-email.me> <v4j28d$kqh$10@i2pn2.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2024 05:39:01 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="020d44455d70acf7231aebb6a85d124b"; logging-data="3471712"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18qfMLn0vC1RpNYtWEZV2dP" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:3o8Y4b/4nOAjIJX2+8dGyS3tZmo= In-Reply-To: <v4j28d$kqh$10@i2pn2.org> Content-Language: en-US Bytes: 6453 On 6/14/2024 10:36 PM, Richard Damon wrote: > On 6/14/24 10:56 PM, olcott wrote: >> On 6/14/2024 9:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>> On 6/14/24 10:39 PM, olcott wrote: >>>> On 6/14/2024 9:17 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>> On 6/14/24 10:06 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>> On 6/14/2024 8:38 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>> On 6/14/24 8:34 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>> On 6/14/2024 6:27 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 6/14/24 9:15 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 6/14/2024 6:39 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 6/14/24 12:13 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> No it is more than that. >>>>>>>>>>>> H cannot even be asked the question: >>>>>>>>>>>> Does D(D) halt? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> No, you just don't understand the proper meaning of "ask" >>>>>>>>>>> when applied to a deterministic entity. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> When H and D have a pathological relationship to each >>>>>>>>>> other then H(D,D) is not being asked about the behavior >>>>>>>>>> of D(D). H1(D,D) has no such pathological relationship >>>>>>>>>> thus D correctly simulated by H1 is the behavior of D(D). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> OF course it is. The nature of the input doesn't affet the form >>>>>>>>> of the question that H is supposed to answer. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The textbook asks the question. >>>>>>>> The data cannot possibly do that. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But the data doesn't need to do it, as the program specifictions >>>>>>> define it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now, if H was supposed to be a "Universal Problem Decider", then >>>>>>> we would need to somehow "encode" the goal of H determining that >>>>>>> a correct (and complete) simulation of its input would need to >>>>>>> reach a final state, but I see no issue with defining a way to >>>>>>> encode that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You already said that H cannot possibly map its >>>>>>>> input to the behavior of D(D). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Right, it is impossible for H to itself compute that behavior and >>>>>>> give an answer. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That doesn't mean we can't encode the question. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We need to stay focused on this one single point until you >>>>>>>> fully get it. Unlike the other two respondents you do have >>>>>>>> the capacity to understand this. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You keep expecting H to read your computer science >>>>>>>> textbooks. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No, I expect its PROGRAMMER to have done that, which clearly you >>>>>>> haven't done. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Programs don't read their requirements, the perform the actions >>>>>>> they were programmed to do, and if the program is correct, it >>>>>>> will get the right answer. If it doesn't get the right answer, >>>>>>> then the programmer erred in saying it meet the requirements. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I am only going to talk to you in the one thread about >>>>>> this, it is too difficult material to understand outside >>>>>> of a single chain of thought. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What, you can't keep the different topic straight? >>>> >>>> It is probably too difficult for anyone to understand outside >>>> of a single thread of thought. It has taken me twenty years >>>> of rehashing the same material until I gradually got deeper >>>> and deeper insights. >>>> >>>> *THIS IS WHAT HAS KEPT ME GOING FOR TWENTY YEARS* >>>> The key aspect of all of this is that if the halting problem is >>>> correct then truth itself is fundamentally broken. Since truth >>>> itself cannot possibly be fundamentally broken it must be >>>> fallible human understanding of truth that is actually broken. >>>> >>> >>> Nope. >>> >>> Maybe YOUR idea of truth is broken, but not truth itself. >>> >> >> The really weird (and very good) part of this is that your >> understanding of these things beats at least half of the >> experts in truthmaker theory. I have looked at a dozen papers. >> >> Explain how an expression of language can be true when >> literally no thing makes it true. This is the one that half >> of the experts are totally clueless about. >> >> Cats are animals is made true by its definition. >> > > Because the "thing" that makes it true is OUTSIDE the system of > interest, THAT IS NOT NO THING, bzzztt Wrong Answer !!! -- Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer