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Path: ...!news.misty.com!weretis.net!feeder9.news.weretis.net!i2pn.org!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic Subject: Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2 Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2024 09:52:34 -0400 Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org) Message-ID: <v4k6b2$2218$10@i2pn2.org> References: <v4j0h2$39gh7$3@dont-email.me> <v4jlm6$3cq2s$2@dont-email.me> <v4k0j9$3f0hc$2@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2024 13:52:34 -0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: i2pn2.org; logging-data="67624"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org"; posting-account="diqKR1lalukngNWEqoq9/uFtbkm5U+w3w6FQ0yesrXg"; User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <v4k0j9$3f0hc$2@dont-email.me> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0 Bytes: 3770 Lines: 66 On 6/15/24 8:14 AM, olcott wrote: > On 6/15/2024 4:08 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >> Op 15.jun.2024 om 05:07 schreef olcott: >>> On 6/13/2024 8:24 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>> > On 6/13/24 11:32 AM, olcott wrote: >>> >> >>> >> It is contingent upon you to show the exact steps of how H computes >>> >> the mapping from the x86 machine language finite string input to >>> >> H(D,D) using the finite string transformation rules specified by >>> >> the semantics of the x86 programming language that reaches the >>> >> behavior of the directly executed D(D) >>> >> >>> > >>> > Why? I don't claim it can. >>> >>> _D() >>> [00000cfc](01) 55 push ebp >>> [00000cfd](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp >>> [00000cff](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08] >>> [00000d02](01) 50 push eax ; push D >>> [00000d03](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08] >>> [00000d06](01) 51 push ecx ; push D >>> [00000d07](05) e800feffff call 00000b0c ; call H >>> [00000d0c](03) 83c408 add esp,+08 >>> [00000d0f](02) 85c0 test eax,eax >>> [00000d11](02) 7404 jz 00000d17 >>> [00000d13](02) 33c0 xor eax,eax >>> [00000d15](02) eb05 jmp 00000d1c >>> [00000d17](05) b801000000 mov eax,00000001 >>> [00000d1c](01) 5d pop ebp >>> [00000d1d](01) c3 ret >>> Size in bytes:(0034) [00000d1d] >>> >>> If there is no mapping from the input to H(D,D) to the behavior >>> of D(D) then H is not even being asked about the behavior of D(D). >>> H has no obligation to answer questions *THAT IT IS NOT BEING ASKED* >>> >> >> H does not answer questions. > > *Wrongo* > In computability theory and computational complexity theory, a > decision problem is a computational problem that can be posed > as a yes–no question of the input values. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_problem So, you agree that H doesn't need to "Understand" the question asked, just give the answer. And, the yes-no question posed to a Halt Decider is: "Does the Machine represented by your input Halt when run?", so that is the question that H is supposed to answer. And since D(D) will halt since H(D,D) returns 0, we can show that the mapping of (D,D) is to Yes, it halts, so H was wrong to say no. > > >> It produces a result that must be interpreted. It is the programmer >> who is asked a question: Can you write a program with a result that >> can be interpreted as whether D halts or does not halt. >> >> You are confirming that no such program can be written. Which was to >> be expected, since there is a proof that no such program exists. >> >