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From: Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V2
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2024 10:32:56 +0300
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On 2024-06-16 12:44:41 +0000, olcott said:

> On 6/16/2024 2:50 AM, Mikko wrote:
>> On 2024-06-15 13:14:57 +0000, olcott said:
>> 
>>> On 6/15/2024 7:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>> On 2024-06-15 03:07:14 +0000, olcott said:
>>>> 
>>>>> On 6/13/2024 8:24 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>  > On 6/13/24 11:32 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>  >>
>>>>>  >> It is contingent upon you to show the exact steps of how H computes
>>>>>  >> the mapping from the x86 machine language finite string input to
>>>>>  >> H(D,D) using the finite string transformation rules specified by
>>>>>  >> the semantics of the x86 programming language that reaches the
>>>>>  >> behavior of the directly executed D(D)
>>>>>  >>
>>>>>  >
>>>>>  > Why? I don't claim it can.
>>>>> 
>>>>> _D()
>>>>> [00000cfc](01) 55          push ebp
>>>>> [00000cfd](02) 8bec        mov ebp,esp
>>>>> [00000cff](03) 8b4508      mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>>>> [00000d02](01) 50          push eax       ; push D
>>>>> [00000d03](03) 8b4d08      mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>>>> [00000d06](01) 51          push ecx       ; push D
>>>>> [00000d07](05) e800feffff  call 00000b0c  ; call H
>>>>> [00000d0c](03) 83c408      add esp,+08
>>>>> [00000d0f](02) 85c0        test eax,eax
>>>>> [00000d11](02) 7404        jz 00000d17
>>>>> [00000d13](02) 33c0        xor eax,eax
>>>>> [00000d15](02) eb05        jmp 00000d1c
>>>>> [00000d17](05) b801000000  mov eax,00000001
>>>>> [00000d1c](01) 5d          pop ebp
>>>>> [00000d1d](01) c3          ret
>>>>> Size in bytes:(0034) [00000d1d]
>>>>> 
>>>>> If there is no mapping from the input to H(D,D) to the behavior
>>>>> of D(D) then H is not even being asked about the behavior of D(D).
>>>>> H has no obligation to answer questions *THAT IT IS NOT BEING ASKED*
>>>> 
>>>> The halting problem specification does not say that a halt decider
>>>> can be asked questions.
>>> 
>>> *It assumes that you already know that*
>> 
>> What assumes? Why would it assume anything about me?
>> 
>>> In computability theory and computational complexity theory, a
>>> decision problem is a computational problem that can be posed
>>> as a yes–no question of the input values.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_problem
>> 
>> That's true. But a decider cannot be asked a question.
> 
> The input to a decider is isomorphic to a yes or no question.

What isomorphism would that be? Would it cover all yes-or-no questions?

>> Whenever a
>> decider is run it answers the question it is made to answer.
> 
> Not necessarily.

If doesn't it is not a decider. If it does but not correctly it is
not a decider of the required kind.

> Just because everyone falsely assumes that D
> correctly simulated by H must have the same behavior as the
> directly executed D(D) does not make this false assumption true.

The D correctly or otherwise simulated by H is the same D as
in the directly executed D(D). Direct execution simply means
that it is simulated by a simulator.

>> The
>> input to the decider is a part of the question but is not itself
>> a question.
> 
> The combination of the input and the algorithm is the question.
> H is only asked about the behavior of D correctly simulated by H
> and is not asked about the behavior of the directly executed D(D).
> 
> Just because everyone assumes that they must be the same does not
> make this assumption correct.
> 
>> However, every decision problem can be presented differently,
>> whithout posing a qeustion.
> 
> That is incorrect.

Then show a decision problem that cannot be presented except
as a question.

-- 
Mikko