Path: ...!news.nobody.at!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: D correctly simulated by H proved for THREE YEARS --- rewritten
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2024 09:35:03 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 123
Message-ID: <v4phin$mub6$3@dont-email.me>
References: <v428vv$2no74$2@dont-email.me> <v4cceu$1mi5i$2@dont-email.me>
 <v4corm$1p0h0$1@dont-email.me> <v4cp5s$1pe0q$1@dont-email.me>
 <v4cs0b$1p0h1$1@dont-email.me> <v4csdq$1q0a8$1@dont-email.me>
 <v4ctuq$1p0h1$2@dont-email.me> <v4cuc6$1qedu$1@dont-email.me>
 <v4e9qm$25ks0$1@dont-email.me> <v4epji$28g4v$2@dont-email.me>
 <v4fhj3$2dce5$1@dont-email.me> <v4fi0m$2dvk4$1@dont-email.me>
 <v4h4ag$2q9hc$1@dont-email.me> <v4he7s$2sdqr$4@dont-email.me>
 <v4i41a$30e5b$1@dont-email.me> <v4i52u$30usa$1@dont-email.me>
 <v4i7ne$311i2$1@dont-email.me> <v4ia6l$31vjj$1@dont-email.me>
 <v4jlds$3cq2s$1@dont-email.me> <v4k0fc$3f0hc$1@dont-email.me>
 <v4k74f$3g29j$1@dont-email.me> <v4k7he$3gc4t$1@dont-email.me>
 <v4k8us$3g29j$3@dont-email.me> <v4k9kk$3gc4t$6@dont-email.me>
 <v4kb18$3gpbj$1@dont-email.me> <v4kbkv$3h3iu$2@dont-email.me>
 <v4m09f$3tvpi$1@dont-email.me> <v4mmai$1qt6$1@dont-email.me>
 <v4nd7k$6b5r$1@dont-email.me> <v4peaq$ln46$13@dont-email.me>
 <v4pgok$l7le$3@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2024 16:35:03 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="24f2a1964fe8769a85c52084edf5324e";
	logging-data="751974"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/QHz4xgDkq7TN6XFcfsO1t"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:miKevJF0/Sw/5Fu9R8cxPCF6uuc=
In-Reply-To: <v4pgok$l7le$3@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-US
Bytes: 6258

On 6/17/2024 9:21 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
> Op 17.jun.2024 om 15:39 schreef olcott:
>> On 6/16/2024 2:08 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>> Op 16.jun.2024 om 14:37 schreef olcott:
>>>> On 6/16/2024 1:21 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>> Op 15.jun.2024 om 17:23 schreef olcott:
>>>>>> On 6/15/2024 10:12 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>> Op 15.jun.2024 om 16:48 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>> On 6/15/2024 9:37 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is this the new definition of "pathological"?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *It is the same thing that I have been saying all along*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 00   typedef void (*ptr)(); // pointer to void function
>>>>>>>> 01
>>>>>>>> 02   int HH(ptr P, ptr I);
>>>>>>>> 03
>>>>>>>> 04   void DDD(int (*x)())
>>>>>>>> 05   {
>>>>>>>> 06     HH(x, x);
>>>>>>>> 07     return;
>>>>>>>> 08   }
>>>>>>>> 09
>>>>>>>> 10   int main()
>>>>>>>> 11   {
>>>>>>>> 12     HH(DDD,DDD);
>>>>>>>> 13   }
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Line 12 main()
>>>>>>>>    invokes HH(DDD,DDD); that simulates DDD()
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *REPEAT UNTIL outer HH aborts*
>>>>>>>>    Line 06 simulated DDD()
>>>>>>>>    invokes simulated HH(DDD,DDD); that simulates DDD()
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> DDD correctly simulated by HH never reaches its own "return"
>>>>>>>> instruction and halts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, you agree that you are changing definitions. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not at all. The original definition still applies when it
>>>>>> is made more generic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 01       int D(ptr p)
>>>>>> 02       {
>>>>>> 03         int Halt_Status = H(p, p);
>>>>>> 04         if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>> 05           HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>> 06         return Halt_Status;
>>>>>> 07       }
>>>>>>
>>>>>> D correctly simulated by H has isomorphic behavior to DDD
>>>>>> correctly simulated by HH, both get stuck in recursive
>>>>>> simulation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> When asked what is a pathological program olcott replied:
>>>>> Op 14.jun.2024 om 21:18 schreef olcott:
>>>>>> For any program H that might determine whether programs halt, a
>>>>>> "pathological" program D, called with some input, can pass its own
>>>>>> source and its input to H and then specifically do the opposite of 
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> H predicts D will do. No H can exist that handles this case. 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No he defines a "pathological" program as a program that calls H.
>>>>> All words about doing the opposite of what H predicts, have 
>>>>> disappeared.
>>>>> Everyone sees the difference, but he is stuck is rebuttal mode and 
>>>>> denies the change of definition.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The code that "does the opposite" was never reachable by
>>>> a simulating halt decider thus does not change the problem
>>>> for a simulating halt decider when this code is removed.
>>>
>>> So, there was never a relation with the Linz proof, where the part 
>>> that does the opposite of what H predicts plays the essential role.
>>>
>>
>> This is the key essence of the pathological relationship in all
>> of the halting problem counter-example proofs including the Linz proof.
>>
>> void DDD()
>> {
>>    H0(DDD);
>> }
>>
>> int main()
>> {
>>    H0(DDD);
>> }
>>
>>> What remains is the fact that H is unable to simulate itself up to 
>>> its final state, which is called a "pathological" property of H.
>>>
>>
>> H is always correct to abort the simulation of any input
>> that would cause itself to not terminate normally.
>>
>> When this is construed as non-halting criteria then H is
>> always correct to reject all of these inputs as non-halting.
>>
> 
> When! But that would be a big mistake to do. The inability of H0 to 
> simulate itself does not tell us anything about the halting behaviour of 
> the program.
> 

Your view here is merely ignorant of the fact that deciders
must report on the behavior specified by their inputs.

It is incorrect to assume against the facts when DDD correctly
simulated by H0 calls a simulated H0(DDD) that this call will
return to the correctly simulated DDD.



-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer