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From: Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: British (european?) kitchen counter electric outlets
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 13:18:33 -0700
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On 6/18/2024 2:28 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
>> So, wire/cable just "hangs" (gravity) in that space?  Resting on <something>
>> as it enters the void and then supported by the connection at the distant end?
> 
> Remember that the void has steel wall ties about every 18" in each direction so 
> the cables are resting on them but not tied down. They are fairly rigid so 
> don't move once they are installed.

But, gravity only exploits those for lateral support.  What about a wire
traveling down to an outlet or switch "from above"?  I don't imagine those are
manually secured to those ties?

>> When *initially* wired, how would cable move across (left-to-right) the
>> room?  Would each "destination" be serviced by routing a cable DOWN from
>> the ceiling directly above the point on the wall?  Or, would the wire
>> drape from one "destination" to the next, sideways, IN that void?
> 
> Convention is that most horizontal wiring is out of sight under the floor above 
> or on the surface of timbers in the loft. In theory I think the code requires 
> them to be anchored every couple of feet. In practice I have seen plenty of 
> loose wires straggling across spaces (and even more horrific plumbing 
> mistakes). In older homes where electricity was a later addition the cables are 
> often buried in the plasterwork. Modern build they tend to be inside stud walls 
> or the cavity. I've never looked to see how they do it but I'm pretty sure the 
> brickies build the walls and the sparks only move in when the house is 
> watertight with a roof on.

In a framed wall, it would be common for a wire to travel laterally through
holes bored in the intervening studs.  E.g., the cable feeding an outlet (about
a foot off the floor) would likely come from (or travel off to) another outlet
AT (slightly above) that ~12 inch height.  This saves wire as the wire doesn't
have to climb to above the ceiling or dive to below the floor to make it's next
connection.

There are rules governing WHERE the wire can penetrate the framing as it is
likely that occupants (with no awareness of where wires actually are run) can
opt to drive nails/fasteners into the wall at any point and potentially
encounter a cable (imagine a partial short creating a fire hazard inside the
wall)

>> If you opted to *add* some device (outlet, etc.), how would you tie into the
>> existing wiring?  Or, would you have to start back at the load center?
> 
> You could do either depending on which was easier. Breaking into a ring main 
> isn't that hard and that is the normal configuration in the UK.

Nut how, physically, do you do this, given that the existing wire is in this
"cavity" AND any new wire would also have to be "threaded" through it?  Here,
worst case, you cut a hole in the drywall, fish the wire through and then
patch/paint the hole.

>> Here, cable has to be secured to the building members, regularly -- and within
>> a few inches of its termination.
> 
> In theory I think that is true in the UK too and most of it is. But not all 
> installers are diligent and building inspections these days are cursory to 
> non-existent.
> 
>>>> Directly onto the brick surface?  Or, was lath/chickenwire installed to 
>>>> support
>>>> the plaster?
>>>
>>> Sometimes they did use chicken wire to make thick plaster stay. Most houses 
>>> they don't bother and the plaster is in two grades a coarse grey one with 
>>> horsehair or other binder in it ~2cm and a final thin skim 3-5mm of pink 
>>> plaster on top. Good plasterers are in great demand. Polishing it to a fine 
>>> flat finish requires real skill (as does making it stick to a ceiling!)
>>
>> Yes, most folks have decided this level of detail isn't important in their
>> homes.   Here, it is (now) done with powered rotary sanders to "level off" the
>> "excess" plaster in the skim coat (as most homes are plaster over drywall).
> 
> It is amazing to watch a good plasterer at work.

Here, they are (have been) stereotypically frenchmen.

>>> Chickenwire plays hell with Wifi (as does the density of the brickwork). The 
>>> thickest walls right in the core of my house are about 4' thick where the 
>>> kitchen range used to be.
>>
>> Metal ductwork creates a similar problem, here.
> 
> Foil coated foam insulation is another common Wifi blocker too.