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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2024 21:39:57 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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On 6/19/24 8:44 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 6/19/2024 7:23 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 6/19/24 9:00 AM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 6/19/2024 3:08 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>> Op 18.jun.2024 om 18:26 schreef olcott:
>>>>> On 6/18/2024 10:47 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>> Op 18.jun.2024 om 17:33 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>> On 6/18/2024 10:20 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is a verified fact that serious C people have recently
>>>>>>> agreed to the following verbatim statement in the C group.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://al.howardknight.net/?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3Cv4pg5p%24morv%241%40raubtier-asyl.eternal-september.org%3E+
>>>>>
>>>>>>> You either lack this degree of skill in C or are only
>>>>>>> interested in playing head games.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have seen the response. It was most certainly not a serious reply.
>>>>>> But you know apparently to little of C to understand that.
>>>>>> Probably, because you are unable to escape from rebuttal mode, 
>>>>>> even if the truth is obvious.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have known C since K&R was the standard and met
>>>>> Bjarne Stroustrup when he came to our university
>>>>> to promote his new C++ programming language.
>>>>>
>>>>> *You seem to be willfully ignorant*
>>>>>
>>>>>> It was your own proof that showed that in
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         int main()
>>>>>>         {
>>>>>>           return H(main);
>>>>>>         }
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> main halts, whereas H reported non-halting. So, it you were honest 
>>>>>> you would stop claiming that H is correct.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That is merely a more difficult to understand version of this
>>>>> same pathological relationship.
>>>>>
>>>>> int main()
>>>>> {
>>>>>    Output("Input_Halts = ", HH0(main));
>>>>> }
>>>>>
>>>>> _main()
>>>>> [000020c2] 55         push ebp
>>>>> [000020c3] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>>>> [000020c5] 68c2200000 push 000020c2 ; push main
>>>>> [000020ca] e833f4ffff call 00001502 ; call HH0
>>>>> [000020cf] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>>>> [000020d2] 50         push eax
>>>>> [000020d3] 6843070000 push 00000743
>>>>> [000020d8] e885e6ffff call 00000762
>>>>> [000020dd] 83c408     add esp,+08
>>>>> [000020e0] eb04       jmp 000020e6
>>>>> [000020e2] 33c0       xor eax,eax
>>>>> [000020e4] eb02       jmp 000020e8
>>>>> [000020e6] 33c0       xor eax,eax
>>>>> [000020e8] 5d         pop ebp
>>>>> [000020e9] c3         ret
>>>>> Size in bytes:(0040) [000020e9]
>>>>>
>>>>>   machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
>>>>>   address   address   data      code       language
>>>>>   ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
>>>>> [000020c2][001036c3][00000000] 55         push ebp
>>>>> [000020c3][001036c3][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>>>> [000020c5][001036bf][000020c2] 68c2200000 push 000020c2 ; push main
>>>>> [000020ca][001036bb][000020cf] e833f4ffff call 00001502 ; call HH0
>>>>> New slave_stack at:103767
>>>>>
>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:11376f
>>>>> [000020c2][0011375f][00113763] 55         push ebp      ; begin main
>>>>> [000020c3][0011375f][00113763] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>>>> [000020c5][0011375b][000020c2] 68c2200000 push 000020c2 ; push main
>>>>> [000020ca][00113757][000020cf] e833f4ffff call 00001502 ; call HH0
>>>>> New slave_stack at:14e18f
>>>>> [000020c2][0015e187][0015e18b] 55         push ebp      ; begin main
>>>>> [000020c3][0015e187][0015e18b] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>>>> [000020c5][0015e183][000020c2] 68c2200000 push 000020c2 ; push main
>>>>> [000020ca][0015e17f][000020cf] e833f4ffff call 00001502 ; call HH0
>>>>> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>>>>>
>>>>> [000020cf][001036c3][00000000] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>>>> [000020d2][001036bf][00000000] 50         push eax
>>>>> [000020d3][001036bb][00000743] 6843070000 push 00000743
>>>>> [000020d8][001036bb][00000743] e885e6ffff call 00000762
>>>>> Input_Halts = 0
>>>>> [000020dd][001036c3][00000000] 83c408     add esp,+08
>>>>> [000020e0][001036c3][00000000] eb04       jmp 000020e6
>>>>> [000020e6][001036c3][00000000] 33c0       xor eax,eax
>>>>> [000020e8][001036c7][00000018] 5d         pop ebp
>>>>> [000020e9][001036cb][00000000] c3         ret           ; exit main
>>>>> Number of Instructions Executed(10070) == 150 Pages
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is easier to understand because a print statement was added.
>>>> You proved that it halts, but H0 reports non-halting.
>>>> So, it produces a false negative.
>>>> So, now it has been proved that H, H0, etc produce false negatives, 
>>>> when used to determine halting behaviour, please, stop to call them 
>>>> halt-deciders, or termination-deciders.
>>>> They might be "simulation deciders". When returning true, the 
>>>> simulation was correct, when false, the full simulation was not 
>>>> possible.
>>>
>>> I don't want to discuss your screwy example because I
>>> can't use screwy examples in my paper.
>>>
>>> void DDD()
>>> {
>>>    H0(DDD);
>>> }
>>>
>>> _DDD()
>>> [000020a2] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>> [000020a3] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>> [000020a5] 68a2200000 push 000020a2 ; push DDD
>>> [000020aa] e8f3f9ffff call 00001aa2 ; call H0
>>> [000020af] 83c404     add esp,+04   ; housekeeping
>>> [000020b2] 5d         pop ebp       ; housekeeping
>>> [000020b3] c3         ret           ; never gets here
>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [000020b3]
>>>
>>> Exactly which step of DDD emulated by H0 was emulated
>>> incorrectly such that this emulation would be complete?
>>> AKA DDD emulated by H0 reaches machine address [000020b3]
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Why does H0 NEED to be able to correctly simulate its input?
>>
> 
> Decider must compute the mapping from their finite string
> input to the actual behavior that this finite string specifies.
> They are not free to imagine the behavior that the authors of
> textbooks expect.

AND THE DEFINITION OF THAT BEHAVIOR IS THE BEHAVIOR OF THE DIRECT 
EXECUTION OF THE PROGRAM THE INPUT REPRESENTS.

Yes, the DO need to follow the behavior that the author of the problem 
defined.

You are just showing you think it is ok to not follow the REQURIEMENTS 
and just LIE about what you are doing.

> 
>> Your question is just a Strawman, replacing the OBJECTIVE criteria of 
>> the behavior of the machine represented by the input (which inlcudes 
>> the code for H0) with the SUBJECTIVE question of what H0 thinks about it.
>>
>> And, your H0 doesn't correctly simulate the input, as the *ONLY* 
>> correct simulation of that input would be:
>>
>> simulate the push ebp
>> simulate the mov ebp,esp
>> simulate the push 000020a2
>> simulate the call 00001aa2
>> simulate the instruction at 00001aa2
>>
> 
> I now have a 195 page color-coded execution trace
> showing HH0 correctly simulating DDD calling
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