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From: joes <noreply@example.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Simulating termination analyzers for dummies
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 23:05:06 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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Am Thu, 20 Jun 2024 17:52:17 -0500 schrieb olcott:
> On 6/20/2024 5:48 PM, joes wrote:
>> Am Wed, 19 Jun 2024 21:25:31 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>> On 6/19/2024 9:17 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 6/19/24 10:02 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 6/19/2024 8:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/19/24 8:44 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 6/19/2024 7:23 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 6/19/24 9:00 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 6/19/2024 3:08 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Op 18.jun.2024 om 18:26 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/18/2024 10:47 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 18.jun.2024 om 17:33 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/18/2024 10:20 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:

>>>>>>>> Why does H0 NEED to be able to simulate its input?
>> Yeah, why? That just adds a contradictory requirement. Not that it were
>> possible otherwise.
Why do you want to decide halting by incomplete simulation?

>>>>>>> Decider must compute the mapping from their finite string input to
>>>>>>> the actual behavior that this finite string specifies.
>> If possible.
Which it is not.

>>>>>>> They are not free to imagine the behavior that the authors of
>>>>>>> textbooks expect.
>> Nor crackpots.

>>>>> The finite string input does not communicate the behavior that the
>>>>> textbook authors expect it to communicate.
>> Bullshit. Your neither-decider-nor-simulator just can't handle it.
>> The direct execution of DDD is the measure of things. A simulation must
>> behave identically. Of course you may be able to do analysis on whether
>> it halts, but that's different. Simulation is dumb.
Your "simulator" is wrong.

>>>> The finite string certainly DOES communicate what is needed to
>>>> determine the behavior, or it wasn't a correct representation.

>>> There is no sequence of truth preserving operations from the finite
>>> string machine code of DDD that can correctly ignore the pathological
>>> relationship between H0 and DDD as an aspect of the behavior that this
>>> finite string specifies.
>> What do you mean with "ignore the relationship"?
Your H0 can not derive the behaviour of DDD, because it contradicts its
own result.

>> We have a proof.
> You have dogmatic false assumptions.
Go ahead, disprove Turing.
> It is an verified fact that the input to H(D,D) cannot be mapped to the
> behavior of D(D).
Yes, H can not decide/simulate D(D). G can that exact D constructed
on H, but not the E which calls G.

> When I say "mapped" I don't mean look something up in Google maps.
Cut the insults.

-- 
Man kann mit dunklen Zahlen nicht rechnen. Für die eigentliche Mathematik 
sind sie vollkommen nutzlos. --Wolfgang Mückenheim