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From: Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 -- Ben agrees that Sipser approved criteria is met
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2024 10:36:00 +0300
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On 2024-06-26 12:58:59 +0000, olcott said:

> On 6/26/2024 3:41 AM, Mikko wrote:
>> On 2024-06-26 02:29:59 +0000, olcott said:
>> 
>>> On 6/25/2024 9:23 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 6/25/24 10:05 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 6/25/2024 8:47 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/25/24 1:45 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 6/25/2024 9:46 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi, Ben.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Ben Bacarisse <ben@bsb.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> In comp.theory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/25/2024 4:22 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Sat, 22 Jun 2024 13:47:24 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/22/2024 1:39 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 21.jun.2024 om 15:21 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> When we stipulate that the only measure of a correct emulation is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> semantics of the x86 programming language then we see that when DDD is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly emulated by H0 that its call to H0(DDD) cannot possibly
>>>>>>>>>>>>> return.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes. Which is wrong, because H0 should terminate.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> [ .... ]
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> The call from DDD to H0(DDD) when DDD is correctly emulated
>>>>>>>>>>> by H0 cannot possibly return.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Until you acknowledge this is true, this is the
>>>>>>>>>>> only thing that I am willing to talk to you about.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I think you are talking at cross purposes.  Joes's point is that H0
>>>>>>>>>> should terminate because it's a decider.  You're saying that when H0 is
>>>>>>>>>> "correctly" emulating, it won't terminate.  I don't recall seeing anybody
>>>>>>>>>> arguing against that.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> So you're saying, in effect, H0 is not a decider.  I don't think anybody
>>>>>>>>>> else would argue against that, either.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> He's been making exactly the same nonsense argument for years.  It
>>>>>>>>> became crystal clear a little over three years ago when he made the
>>>>>>>>> mistake of posting the pseudo-code for H -- a step by step simulator
>>>>>>>>> that stopped simulating (famously on line 15) when some pattern was
>>>>>>>>> detected.  He declared false (not halting) to be the correct result for
>>>>>>>>> the halting computation H(H_Hat(), H_Hat()) because of what H(H_Hat(),
>>>>>>>>> H_Hat()) would do "if line 15 were commented out"!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> PO does occasionally make it clear what the shell game is.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I think it's important for (relative) newcomers to the newsgroup to
>>>>>>>> become aware of this.  Each one of them is trying to help PO improve his
>>>>>>>> level of learning.  They will eventually give up, as you and I have
>>>>>>>> done, recognising (as Mike Terry, in particular, has done) that
>>>>>>>> enriching PO's intellect is a quite impossible task.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> What's the betting he'll respond to this post with his usual short
>>>>>>>> sequence of x86 assembly code together with a demand to recognise
>>>>>>>> something or other as non-terminating?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Ben.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> <MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>
>>>>>>>      If simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its input D
>>>>>>>      until H correctly determines that its simulated D would never
>>>>>>>      stop running unless aborted then
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>      H can abort its simulation of D and correctly report that D
>>>>>>>      specifies a non-halting sequence of configurations.
>>>>>>> </MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 10/14/2022 7:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>  > I don't think that is the shell game. PO really /has/ an H
>>>>>>>  > (it's trivial to do for this one case) that correctly determines
>>>>>>>  > that P(P) *would* never stop running *unless* aborted.
>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>  > He knows and accepts that P(P) actually does stop. The
>>>>>>>  > wrong answer is justified by what would happen if H
>>>>>>>  > (and hence a different P) where not what they actually are.
>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ben thinks that I tricked professor Sipser into agreeing
>>>>>>> with something that he did not fully understand.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> *The real issue is that no one here sufficiently understands*
>>>>>>> *the highlighted portion of the following definition*
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Computable functions are the formalized analogue of the
>>>>>>> intuitive notion of algorithms, in the sense that a
>>>>>>> function is computable if there exists an algorithm
>>>>>>> that can do the job of the function, i.e.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> *given an input of the function domain*
>>>>>>> *it can return the corresponding output*
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computable_function
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But only if the function is, in fact, computable.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Since Halting isn't, you can't use that fact.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If I ask you: What time is it?
>>>>> and you do not tell me the answer to the question hidden
>>>>> in my mind "What did you have for dinner?" We cannot say
>>>>> that you provided the wrong answer when you tell me what
>>>>> time it is.
>>>> 
>>>> Because I answered the actual question.
>>>> 
>>>> Just like the "Halt Decider" needs to answer the "Halt Decider 
>>>> Question" and not answer about POOP.
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> When we ask H to tell us whether its actual input halts
>>>>> H can only answer that P correctly simulated by H will not halt.
>>>>> H cannot answer the question hidden in your mind.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Then you are just admitting that it can't be a Halt Decider.
>>>> 
>>>> If it isn't what the definition requires, it just isn't one.
>>> 
>>> Yes and everyone knows that computer scientists are much
>>> more infallible than God thus cannot possibly ever make
>>> a definition that is incoherent in ways that these 100%
>>> infallible computer scientists never noticed.
>> 
>> Actually, it is the opposite. Everybody, or at least all computer
>> scientists and engineers, know that they, and all peaple, are fallible,
>> at least when making programs and when inferring about programs. Therefore
>> computer engineers demand that every program must be tested, and computer
>> scinetists demand that every claim is proven.
> 
> If this was true then everyone here would already know
> that H(P,P) is not even being asked about the behavior
> of the directly executed P(P).

Everyone knwos that H(P,P) is not asked anything.

-- 
Mikko