Path: ...!weretis.net!feeder9.news.weretis.net!i2pn.org!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0 -- Ben agrees that Sipser approved
 criteria is met
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2024 19:57:19 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID: <v5ku8v$1as00$3@i2pn2.org>
References: <v45tec$4q15$1@dont-email.me> <v5eg03$1ikpr$2@dont-email.me>
 <v5eho7$24l4$1@news.muc.de> <87jzidm83f.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <v5el8c$24l4$4@news.muc.de> <v5evoi$1lgoi$1@dont-email.me>
 <v5frvn$14bcm$6@i2pn2.org> <v5ft1p$1uc3o$2@dont-email.me>
 <v5fu24$14bcn$2@i2pn2.org> <v5fuf7$1up2o$1@dont-email.me>
 <v5fvvk$14bcn$4@i2pn2.org> <v5g1ue$1v8bm$2@dont-email.me>
 <v5g29u$14bcm$11@i2pn2.org> <v5g2nd$1v8bm$4@dont-email.me>
 <v5gsfv$15l89$2@i2pn2.org> <v5h5sd$24jbd$10@dont-email.me>
 <v5i8v9$17ej1$2@i2pn2.org> <v5i998$2cko8$1@dont-email.me>
 <v5i9ot$17ej0$3@i2pn2.org> <v5ib7n$2cko8$4@dont-email.me>
 <v5ichc$17ej1$8@i2pn2.org>
 <5nSdnSkMN76jIOH7nZ2dnZfqnPidnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>
 <yumdnWJaTZk7XeH7nZ2dnZfqn_WdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>
 <v5igku$17ej0$5@i2pn2.org>
 <XpCdnbOhAMLeVOH7nZ2dnZfqn_GdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>
 <v5ijcs$17ej1$11@i2pn2.org> <v5ik3e$2i32s$2@dont-email.me>
 <v5iliq$17ej1$14@i2pn2.org> <v5imki$2ie27$2@dont-email.me>
 <v5jinm$19368$2@i2pn2.org> <v5jpq8$2o58l$2@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2024 23:57:19 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: i2pn2.org;
	logging-data="1404928"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org";
	posting-account="diqKR1lalukngNWEqoq9/uFtbkm5U+w3w6FQ0yesrXg";
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
In-Reply-To: <v5jpq8$2o58l$2@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-US
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0
Bytes: 7147
Lines: 159

On 6/27/24 9:35 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 6/27/2024 6:34 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 6/26/24 11:34 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 6/26/2024 10:16 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 6/26/24 10:51 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Is disabled. It is commented out.
>>>>> It was only ever used so that humans could see the depth.
>>>>
>>>> But, if it can measure the fact that this is the top level decider, 
>>>> that means that it sees something that it can't know.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The top level decider simply reaches its infinite
>>> recursion behavior pattern first. It need not know
>>> that it is first.
>>>
>>
>> But it if abortts, then the pattern ISN'T infinite recursion,
> 
> void Infinite_Recursion()
> {
>    Infinite_Recursion();
> }
> 
> It is the exact same code that recognizes this as non-halting
> SO IT IS THE INFINITE RECURSION BEHAVIOR PATTERN AS A MATTER OF FACT.

The the code is wrong. As the pathological program does not have infinte 
recursion if the dicider it calls aborts and returns,

If will be finite, and you can not do infinite recursion in finite time.

> 
>>  as a correct emulation of the code it was emulating will have finite 
>> behaivior.
>>
> 
> void Infinite_Loop()
> {
>    HERE: goto HERE;
> }
> 
> Only in the same way and for the same reason that Infinite_Loop()
> and Infinite_Recursion() have finite behavior. H0 stops simulating
> them because it correctly determines that they would not otherwise
> stop.

But Infinite_Lopp and Infinite_Recursion do NOT have finite behavior, as 
they will run forever.

But D(D) doesn't if H(D,D) aborts its simulation and returns 0, and it 
it doesn't, D still fullfiled its Job as H has been shown not to be a 
decider at all.

> 
>> You can't have an infinite level of recursion in a finite number of 
>> steps.
>>
>> Your problem is your emulator doesn't look at the program it is 
>> actually given, but thinks of it as something different.
>>
> Liar.

Then why does it thin\k that the decider that it sees called never 
returns when that exact same decider with the exact same input does?

> 
>> Remember, either it can't look past the call instruction as there is 
>> nothing there to look at, or the code after the call instruction is 
>> part of the input, and thus you can't think about changing it and 
>> still having the same input.
>>
> Unless the outermost H0(DDD) aborts none of them do. The
> outermost one reaches its abort criteria one recursive
> emulation before the next one.

And if it does, ALL OF THEM do. Just not in the partial simulation done 
by H0.

Remember, Parials simulations do not show what happens after the 
simulation has been aborted.

> 
>>
>>>> EVERY level of dicider should think that it is, or at least could 
>>>> be, the top level, as it can't know any differently.
>>>>
>>> That Is how they work.
>>
>> Then why isn't that what your traces show?
>>
> The traces do show that, they are simply above your degree
> of technical competence.

Nope.

> 
>> A why does the comment ask about at the global top, since any one 
>> decider doesn't know where it
>>
> 
> SO THAT HUMANS CAN SEE THIS AS I HAVE ALREADY TOLD YOU MANY TIMES
> SO THAT HUMANS CAN SEE THIS AS I HAVE ALREADY TOLD YOU MANY TIMES
> SO THAT HUMANS CAN SEE THIS AS I HAVE ALREADY TOLD YOU MANY TIMES
> SO THAT HUMANS CAN SEE THIS AS I HAVE ALREADY TOLD YOU MANY TIMES

I.E, you LIE so you can DECEIVE people

> 
> IT IS FREAKING DISABLED AS I HAVE TOLD YOU MANY TIMES
> IT IS FREAKING DISABLED AS I HAVE TOLD YOU MANY TIMES
> IT IS FREAKING DISABLED AS I HAVE TOLD YOU MANY TIMES
> IT IS FREAKING DISABLED AS I HAVE TOLD YOU MANY TIMES

Then why did Mike see it behave differently?

And, you ADMITTED that it wasn't, as only the outer emulator should 
allocate the buffer, so the inner ones MUST know about it to avoid 
over-writting and erasing the buffer.

> 
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> a decider shouldn't be 
>>>>>> able to know that it isn't the top level decider.
>>>>>
>>>>> This doesn't have any effect on its computation thus irrelevant.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It does if it knows that it isn't being simulated, which is 
>>>> knowledge that no simulated machine is allowed to have, as that 
>>>> means the simulation isn't correct. BY DEFINITION.
>>>
>>> It only knows this to decide whether to call Allocate
>>> or not. It never uses this for anything else.
>>>
>>
>> Why does that make a difference? Each level needs to allocate the 
>> buffer in its own memory space for it to use.
>>
>> If they share a buffer, that is improper state sharing.
> 
> That is the way that ALL UTMs work knucklehead.
> UTMs cannot possibly operate in any other way.

Nope. You seem to not understand the proper way to do correct simulation.

A proper simulator places its input inot a virtual private memory space 
that the simulated machine can not see out of.

> 
> Message-ID: <rLmcnQQ3-N_tvH_4nZ2dnZfqnPGdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>
> On 3/1/2024 12:41 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>  >
>  > Obviously a simulator has access to the
>  > internal state (tape contents etc.) of the
>  > simulated machine. No problem there.
>  >
>