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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Why do people here insist on denying these verified facts?
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2024 19:57:30 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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On 6/27/24 3:42 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 6/27/2024 2:18 AM, Mikko wrote:
>> On 2024-06-26 12:53:16 +0000, olcott said:
>>
>>> On 6/26/2024 2:54 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Obviously false. The meaning of H(P,P) is determined by the text of H.
>>>> The meaning is fully determined by the complier that complies to the
>>>> x86 code and the semantics of x86. If one simulator interpretes the
>>>> x86 code differently from another simulator then one of them does not
>>>> follow the x86 semantics and is therefore incorrect.
>>>
>>> _DDD()
>>> [00002172] 55               push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>> [00002173] 8bec             mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>> [00002175] 6872210000       push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff       call 000015d2 ; call H0(DDD)
>>> [0000217f] 83c404           add esp,+04
>>> [00002182] 5d               pop ebp
>>> [00002183] c3               ret
>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>
>>> The call from DDD to
>>> the x86 emulator H0(DDD) at machine address 0000217a
>>> when DDD is correctly emulated by H0 cannot possibly return.
>>>
>>> When DDD is correctly emulated by H0 then H0 must emulate itself
>>> emulating DDD. This derives recursive emulation.
>>>
>>> When DDD is correctly emulated by H1 then H1 NEED NOT emulate itself
>>> emulating DDD. This DOES NOT derive recursive emulation.
>>
>> When DDD is emulated by H1 then H1 needs to the call to H0 and the
>> instructions of H0 which emulate DDD and its call to H0 and a recorsive
>> emulation follows. If H1 emulates correctly it must not emulate the
>> emulation of the instruction at 217f. Unless, of course, you lied
>> about H0.
>>
> 
> You contradict yourself.
> *Here is what actually happens*
> 
> _DDD()
> [00002172] 55         push ebp
> [00002173] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH0
> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04
> [00002182] 5d         pop ebp
> [00002183] c3         ret
> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
> 
> _main()
> [00002192] 55         push ebp
> [00002193] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> [00002195] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
> [0000219a] e863f3ffff call 00001502 ; call HHH1(DDD)
> [0000219f] 83c404     add esp,+04
> [000021a2] 50         push eax
> [000021a3] 6843070000 push 00000743
> [000021a8] e8b5e5ffff call 00000762
> [000021ad] 83c408     add esp,+08
> [000021b0] eb04       jmp 000021b6
> [000021b2] 33c0       xor eax,eax
> [000021b4] eb02       jmp 000021b8
> [000021b6] 33c0       xor eax,eax
> [000021b8] 5d         pop ebp
> [000021b9] c3         ret
> Size in bytes:(0040) [000021b9]
> 
>   machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
>   address   address   data      code       language
>   ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
> [00002192][00103826][00000000] 55         push ebp
> [00002193][00103826][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> [00002195][00103822][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
> [0000219a][0010381e][0000219f] e863f3ffff call 00001502 ; call HHH1(DDD)
> New slave_stack at:1038ca

Which isn't a correct simulation of the CALL HHH1 instruction.

So, you proof is shown to be a LIE.

Note, by the rules of the x86, calling a function, even if it is a 
emulator, doesn't make the x86 emulation of that call to be an emulation 
of the input to that function.

> 
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:1138d2
> [00002172][001138c2][001138c6] 55         push ebp
> [00002173][001138c2][001138c6] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> [00002175][001138be][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
> [0000217a][001138ba][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH0(DDD)
> New slave_stack at:14e2f2
> 
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:15e2fa
> [00002172][0015e2ea][0015e2ee] 55         push ebp
> [00002173][0015e2ea][0015e2ee] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> [00002175][0015e2e6][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
> [0000217a][0015e2e2][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH0(DDD)
> New slave_stack at:198d1a
> [00002172][001a8d12][001a8d16] 55         push ebp
> [00002173][001a8d12][001a8d16] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> [00002175][001a8d0e][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
> [0000217a][001a8d0a][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH0(DDD)
> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
> 
> [0000217f][001138c2][001138c6] 83c404     add esp,+04   ; return to DDD
> [00002182][001138c6][000015b7] 5d         pop ebp
> [00002183][001138ca][0003a980] c3         ret           ; return to main
> [0000219f][00103826][00000000] 83c404     add esp,+04
> [000021a2][00103822][00000001] 50         push eax
> [000021a3][0010381e][00000743] 6843070000 push 00000743
> [000021a8][0010381e][00000743] e8b5e5ffff call 00000762
> Input_Halts = 1
> [000021ad][00103826][00000000] 83c408     add esp,+08
> [000021b0][00103826][00000000] eb04       jmp 000021b6
> [000021b6][00103826][00000000] 33c0       xor eax,eax
> [000021b8][0010382a][00000018] 5d         pop ebp
> [000021b9][0010382e][00000000] c3         ret
> Number of Instructions Executed(352835) == 5266 Pages
> 
>