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Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> Newsgroups: sci.lang Subject: Re: generally, borrowed words often happily coexist with native words, sometimes with a distinction of meaning. Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2024 22:38:02 +1200 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 102 Message-ID: <v5m3qi$3a5qm$1@dont-email.me> References: <v5ku4g$2vco7$2@dont-email.me> <v5kuo4$2vafn$2@dont-email.me> Reply-To: r.clark@auckland.ac.nz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2024 12:38:11 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="196da998cc8b72ae1b606abe3b9f5a0f"; logging-data="3479382"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18YZjwML/4L3SU+bhdS0ldPxxFPk1QPQHU=" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 Cancel-Lock: sha1:/S+TSTQUsqtyrm2zU7VZ7GRjhAM= Content-Language: en-GB In-Reply-To: <v5kuo4$2vafn$2@dont-email.me> Bytes: 4740 On 28/06/2024 12:05 p.m., HenHanna wrote: > > how old is this Adam Funk? 40's ? 50's ??? > > does he always sound Stupid? > > > > > But I'm surprised there aren't native Japanese words for some of > > > these: > > > >> >> Re: Names of D&D-type monsters in Japanese >> by: Ross Clark - Wed, 26 Jun 2024 15:04 >> >> >> On 27/06/2024 1:16 a.m., Adam Funk wrote: >> > As I mentioned in another thread a few weeks ago, I've been watching >> > the _Delicious in Dungeon_ anime, with Japanese sound & English >> > subtitles. I noticed that a lot of the monsters & some other bits of >> > D&D-ish jargon are clearly Japanese adaptations of English words. I >> > clearly heard similar-sounding words for "undine" & "dungeon", and >> > I've also collected translations from the list of episode titles. >> > >> > It makes sense to me that they would adapt words for monsters from >> > "Western traditions": >> > >> > basilisk = Bajirisuku >> > orcs = Ōku >> > kelpie = Kerupī >> > dryad = Doraiado >> > cockatrice = Kokatorisu >> > harpy = Hāpī >> > griffin = Gurifin >> > golem = Gōremu >> > >> > and real foods of Western origin: >> > >> > omelet = Omuretsu >> > sorbet = Sorube >> > >> > >> > But I'm surprised there aren't native Japanese words for some of >> > these: >> > >> > tentacles = Tentakurusu >> > red dragon = Reddo Doragon [aren't dragons in Japanese tradition? >> > "reddo" looks suspicious] >> > sea serpent = Shīsāpento >> > shapeshifter = Sheipu Shifutā [could be translated] >> > ice golem = Aisu Gōremu [I get golem but "aisu" looks suspicious] >> > >> > dumplings = Danpuringu [why not "gyoza"?] >> > bacon and eggs = Bēkon'Eggu [I get bacon but "egg" is "Tamago" >> > elsewhere] >> > >> > >> > Comments, ideas? >> > >> >> >> These English borrowings are just naming monsters, after all -- they're >> not replacing existing Japanese words. >> >> >> More generally, borrowed words often happily coexist with native words, >> sometimes with a distinction of meaning. I recommend a little book by >> Akira Miura, _English Loanwords in Japanese: A Selection_ (Tuttle, >> 1979), which explains a lot of these. >> >> >> Example: Japanese has /gyūnyū/ for 'cow's milk', but also /miruku/. >> >> "...in the usage of many Japanese...gyūnyū is fresh milk whereas miruku >> is either warm milk served with sugar at a coffee shop or powdered milk, >> or condensed milk sold in a can" > > > this explanation sounds outdated by 30+ years. Could well be. Note the publication date of the book. But how does it "sound outdated"? Because we now have a better explanation? or because Japanese usage has changed? Miura does note that some Japanese are actually using miruku in place of gyūnyū, >> >> >> ----------- i'd have expected Ross Clark (a linguist) to >> make a comment along the lines of... >> >> in English... (pig, pork) >> >> Cow (English) - Boeuf (French, meat) > >> Sheep (English) - Mouton (French, meat) >> Yes, and no doubt some people asked "Why should we borrow a French word when we already have a perfectly good word for sheep?"