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From: "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Flat out dishonest or totally ignorant?
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2024 19:56:24 +0200
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Op 03.jul.2024 om 18:21 schreef olcott:
> On 7/3/2024 11:09 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>> Op 03.jul.2024 om 17:55 schreef olcott:
>>> On 7/3/2024 10:52 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>> Op 03.jul.2024 om 15:24 schreef olcott:
>>>>> On 7/3/2024 3:42 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>> Op 03.jul.2024 om 05:55 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>> On 7/2/2024 10:50 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>> Am Tue, 02 Jul 2024 14:46:38 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>> On 7/2/2024 2:17 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Op 02.jul.2024 om 21:00 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/2/2024 1:42 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 02.jul.2024 om 14:22 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/2/2024 3:22 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 02.jul.2024 om 03:25 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Every C programmer that knows what an x86 emulator is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knows that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when HHH emulates the machine language of Infinite_Loop,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Infinite_Recursion, and DDD that it must abort these 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulations so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that itself can terminate normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whether or not it *must* abort is not very relevant.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This <is> the problem that I am willing to discuss.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am unwilling to discuss any other problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This does meet the Sipser approved criteria.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Repeating the same thing that has already been proved to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> irrelevant does not bring the discussion any further.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sipser is not relevant, because that is about a correct 
>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Your simulation is not correct.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If you disagree with this you are either dishonest or 
>>>>>>>>>>> clueless I no
>>>>>>>>>>> longer care which one.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> DDD is correctly emulated by HHH which calls an emulated 
>>>>>>>>>>> HHH(DDD) to
>>>>>>>>>>> repeat the process until aborted.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> HHH repeats the process twice and aborts too soon.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You are freaking thinking too damn narrow minded.
>>>>>>>>> DDD is correctly emulated by any HHH that can exist which calls 
>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> emulated HHH(DDD) to repeat the process until aborted (which 
>>>>>>>>> may be
>>>>>>>>> never).
>>>>>>>> Whatever HHH does, it does not run forever but aborts.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> HHH halts on input DDD.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> void DDD()
>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>    HHH(DDD);
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly halt.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That would be an error of the simulator, because it aborts its own 
>>>>>> simulation too soon, one cycle before the simulated HHH would 
>>>>>> return and 
>>>>>
>>>>> You dishonestly redefined the problem so that it has no correct 
>>>>> answer.
>>>>
>>>> (Ignoring an distracting irrelevant hominem remark.)
>>>>
>>>> If you think that "What time is a three story building?" must have a 
>>>> correct answer, you are wrong.
>>>> Similarly, if you think that HHH can simulate itself correctly, you 
>>>> are wrong.
>>>>
>>>>         int H(ptr p, ptr i);
>>>>
>>>>         int main()
>>>>         {
>>>>           return H(main, 0);
>>>>         }
>>>>
>>>> You showed that H returns, but that the simulation thinks it does 
>>>> not return.
>>>> DDD is making it unnecessarily complex, but has the same problem.
>>>
>>> main correctly emulated by H never stops running unless aborted.
>>>
>>
>> HHH is unable to simulate main correctly, because it unable to 
>> simulate itself correctly.
>> The 'unless phrase' is misleading, because we are talking about a H 
>> *does* abort. Dreaming of one that does not abort, is irrelevant.
>> The correctly simulated main would stop, because the simulated H is 
>> only one cycle away from its return when its simulation is aborted.
> 
> HHH is required to report on what would happen if HHH did not abort.

Aha, that is the misunderstanding. HHH does not report at all.
Remember "I am not talking about a decider, dumbo."?
The question is: "Is HHH able to correctly simulate itself?".
I proved that it cannot. If it aborts, it aborts one cycle too soon.

> HHH is forbidden from getting its own self stuck in infinite execution.
> Emulated instances of itself is not its actual self.

It can't get stuck if it aborts. But if it aborts, it aborts one cycle 
too soon for a correct simulation. HHH cannot possibly correctly 
simulate itself up to its end.

A simple proof that shows that HHH is unable to correctly simulate itself.