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From: William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: the future long term financial apocalypse of the USA
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2024 19:16:19 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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Titus G wrote:
> On 23/05/24 09:24, William Hyde wrote:
>> D wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, 21 May 2024, William Hyde wrote:
>>>
>>>> D wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 20 May 2024, William Hyde wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> D wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The only regulation that is necessary for two people to transact
>>>>>>> is what they agree upon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This being  a science fiction newsgroup, let's consider your
>>>>>> decisions when you are sent back to London in 1870.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are hungry, and want some bread.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which of the following do you expect to find in your bread?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (1) Grain
>>>>>> (2) Yeast
>>>>>> (3) Chalk
>>>>>> (4) Alum
>>>>>> (5) Plaster of Paris.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you "agree" with the bakery that you want Alum in your bread? Do
>>>>>> you even know it is there?   In what sense is your consumption of
>>>>>> Plaster of Paris an agreed upon transaction if you have no way of
>>>>>> knowing it is there?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Full of nourishing wheat with extra chalk, you  rent a room in a
>>>>>> new building with cheerful bright wallpaper.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How much Arsenic is in the room?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (1) Trace amounts
>>>>>> (2) One pound
>>>>>> (3) Two pounds
>>>>>> (4) Three pounds
>>>>>> (5) Four pounds
>>>>>> (6) Five pounds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At what point did you agree to  rent a room infused with 3.7 pounds
>>>>>> of Arsenic? For that matter, did your landlord agree to poison his
>>>>>> tenants when he bought the wallpaper, or did the manufacturer keep
>>>>>> silent on just how much Arsenic was needed for those vivid colours?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> William Hyde
>>>>>
>>>>> Needless to say, it is not very good business strategy to poison
>>>>> your customers.
>>>>
>>>> Your conclusion is contradicted by reality.  This strategy worked for
>>>> decades, and in other contexts, works now.
>>>
>>> Incorrect. We are more people than ever on this planet right now.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think that is all I will say about this thought experiment.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Aside from the time travel, this all happened.  There was plaster of
>>>> Paris in the bread, Arsenic in the wallpaper.
>>>>
>>>> Nobody asked for this, nobody wanted it, but they got it.  Free market!
>>>
>>> Fewer people have died by criminal companies than by governments. So I
>>> prefer to trust a business accountable to its customers. Yes, people
>>> have died, but that is hardly the fault of the free market. As stated,
>>> governments have killed far more, so by that logic, we should ban
>>> governments as quick as possible.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If you _really_ would like to seriously explore the why and how,
>>>>
>>>> Oh, I love that "really".  After "really" ignoring the facts I gave
>>>> above, you point me to "excellent books".
>>>>
>>>> The facts of history directly contradict your claims.  But you prefer
>>>> theory.
>>>
>>> Incorrect, see above.
>>
>> Ok, you prefer lies.
>>
>> The predatory behavior of unregulated companies does not contradict an
>> increasing population.  If a few hundred children die of alum-related
>> complications, and a number of people have their lives shortened by
>> arsenic poisoning, the population can still increase, especially when
>> these activities are banned by government regulation, public health laws
>> are established, medicine improves, and so on.
>>
>> We have nothing quite so blatant as alum or chalk in bread now, thanks
>> to government.   Not in the west, anyway.
>>
> 
> A Scandinavian country classifies Subway bread as confectionery (re tax)

In Halifax there was a subway with insufficient ventilation.  The 
concentrated smell of that bread put me right off it.

But yes, it is strongly not recommended for me.


> We have more recently had lead paint, asbestos and thalidomide.


I would draw a distinction here in  that these are due to ignorance 
and/or incompetence, at least at first. Much like the above example of 
arsenic in wallpaper, where ignorance and/or incompetence let people 
think that the poison would stay there (and toddlers, of course, never 
lick anything).

Though asbestos (largely mined in Canada) continues to be sold long 
after its effects have been known, a national disgrace which at some 
point could not be explained by ignorance or incompetence, but only by 
greed.

I have never been able to read JW Campbell's essay on thalidomide, but 
the general impression is that he thought offering it was perfectly OK, 
if unfortunate.  I file this under incompetence/ignorance (from someone 
with a degree) rather than greed.

But they always knew that Alum and plaster of Paris in bread was a 
health risk.  No level of ignorance can excuse that.


> We still have opioids,

I still think they have value. Minor rant follows:


I had shingles.  Oxycocet, a time-release opioid (allegedly harder to 
tamper with, but not really), killed the pain utterly, so I could sleep 
at night.

If I get shingles again and something of the kind is not available, I 
will be one unhappy patient.  Nothing else worked at night (it was just 
over the freezing point outside, so during the day I could take a walk 
without a jacket and  the cold + tylenol 2 did the trick but I couldn't 
sleep doing that).

An impecunious friend in the US takes Tylenol 3 for back pain.  A bottle 
of sixty pills lasts most of a year.  As a result of an HMO shakeup he 
has a new doctor who is scared to death of prescribing any opioid in any 
quantity.  Five or six non-opioid treatments (with expensive copays) 
have been tied so far.  The result?  Chronic pain.

First they wildly over-prescribed them, now, like infants who have been 
punished, they're very, very good boys and girls.  Too good, in fact.

Even my own doctor, a sensible man, prescribed fifty pills, I talked him 
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