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Path: ...!news.mixmin.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: People are still trying to get away with disagreeing with the semantics of the x86 language Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2024 08:41:22 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 90 Message-ID: <v668q2$2pc84$2@dont-email.me> References: <v5pbjf$55h$1@dont-email.me> <v5r5q9$ekvf$1@dont-email.me> <v5s40h$jvgt$1@dont-email.me> <v5tgvj$utcb$1@dont-email.me> <v5u8c9$12udb$1@dont-email.me> <v608ft$1hqo6$1@dont-email.me> <v61hoo$1og2o$1@dont-email.me> <v61k27$1oec9$3@dont-email.me> <v61li2$1p1uo$2@dont-email.me> <v63205$23ohl$1@dont-email.me> <v63j94$26loi$4@dont-email.me> <db9212dd66972657132755b66b6c473167119450@i2pn2.org> <v63o75$27nhv$2@dont-email.me> <6ca7c213b3ec5e20ae45c951ea48fbffcf5aae91@i2pn2.org> <v665in$2oun1$7@dont-email.me> <b36744609d2139c1264ecb8d6e348c1f4b68787e@i2pn2.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2024 15:41:22 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="8ec8ab09a9c087279b96ae2505557d8c"; logging-data="2928900"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/7JVC8zk0lwHq3c069F8Ys" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:uUNJMU5Y45b1JPzLYLu93w/YVVI= In-Reply-To: <b36744609d2139c1264ecb8d6e348c1f4b68787e@i2pn2.org> Content-Language: en-US Bytes: 5556 On 7/4/2024 8:26 AM, joes wrote: > Am Thu, 04 Jul 2024 07:46:15 -0500 schrieb olcott: >> On 7/4/2024 5:15 AM, joes wrote: >>> Am Wed, 03 Jul 2024 09:45:57 -0500 schrieb olcott: >>>> On 7/3/2024 9:39 AM, joes wrote: >>>>> Am Wed, 03 Jul 2024 08:21:40 -0500 schrieb olcott: >>>>>> On 7/3/2024 3:26 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>> Op 02.jul.2024 om 21:48 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>> On 7/2/2024 2:22 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>> Op 02.jul.2024 om 20:43 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>> On 7/2/2024 1:59 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-07-01 12:44:57 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/1/2024 1:05 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-06-30 17:18:09 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard just said that he affirms that when DDD correctly >>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by HHH calls HHH(DDD) that this call returns even >>>>>>>>>>>>>> though the semantics of the x86 language disagrees. >>>>> Which semantics? >>> I repeat. > What x86 semantics say that HHH can’t return? > >>>>>> DDD correctly emulated by HHH calls an emulated HHH(DDD) that >>>>>> emulates DDD that calls an emulated HHH(DDD) >>>>>> in a cycle that cannot end unless aborted. >>>>> But HHH aborts, so the cycle does end. >>>> As long as it is impossible for DDD correctly emulated by HHH to reach >>>> its own ret instruction then DDD never halts even when its stops >>>> running because its emulation was aborted. >>> HHH halts by definition. Why can’t DDD? >> By definition DDD calls its simulator. > Yes, and nothing else. So when HHH returns, so does DDD. > You simply lack sufficient technical competence of these things *Machine address 00002174 of DDD is never reached* I am using an x86 emulator with decades of development effort. _DDD() [00002163] 55 push ebp [00002164] 8bec mov ebp,esp [00002166] 6863210000 push 00002163 ; push DDD [0000216b] e853f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH(DDD) [00002170] 83c404 add esp,+04 [00002173] 5d pop ebp [00002174] c3 ret Size in bytes:(0018) [00002174] _main() [00002183] 55 push ebp [00002184] 8bec mov ebp,esp [00002186] 6863210000 push 00002163 [0000218b] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 [00002190] 83c404 add esp,+04 [00002193] 33c0 xor eax,eax [00002195] 5d pop ebp [00002196] c3 ret Size in bytes:(0020) [00002196] machine stack stack machine assembly address address data code language ======== ======== ======== ========= ============= [00002183][001037dd][00000000] 55 push ebp [00002184][001037dd][00000000] 8bec mov ebp,esp [00002186][001037d9][00002163] 6863210000 push 00002163 [0000218b][001037d5][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 New slave_stack at:103881 ; *create a different process context* Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:113889 [00002163][00113879][0011387d] 55 push ebp [00002164][00113879][0011387d] 8bec mov ebp,esp [00002166][00113875][00002163] 6863210000 push 00002163 ; push DDD [0000216b][00113871][00002170] e853f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH(DDD) New slave_stack at:14e2a9 ; *create a different process context* [00002163][0015e2a1][0015e2a5] 55 push ebp [00002164][0015e2a1][0015e2a5] 8bec mov ebp,esp [00002166][0015e29d][00002163] 6863210000 push 00002163 ; push DDD [0000216b][0015e299][00002170] e853f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH(DDD) Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped [00002190][001037dd][00000000] 83c404 add esp,+04 [00002193][001037dd][00000000] 33c0 xor eax,eax [00002195][001037e1][00000018] 5d pop ebp [00002196][001037e5][00000000] c3 ret Number of Instructions Executed(10066) == 150 Pages -- Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer