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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Sequence of sequence, selection and iteration matters --- Ben
 agrees (typo corrected)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2024 23:01:27 -0500
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On 7/8/2024 9:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 7/8/24 10:06 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 7/8/2024 9:01 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 7/8/24 9:23 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 7/8/2024 7:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 7/8/24 8:21 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/8/2024 6:59 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 7/8/24 7:45 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 7/8/2024 6:26 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 7/8/24 9:04 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 7/8/2024 2:22 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-07-07 14:16:10 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55               push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec             mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000       push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff       call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404           add esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002182] 5d               pop ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3               ret
>>>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sufficient knowledge of the x86 language conclusively proves
>>>>>>>>>>>> that the call from DDD correctly emulated by HHH to HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot possibly return for any pure function HHH.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Suffifcient knowledge of the x86 language makes obvious that
>>>>>>>>>>> DDD returns if and only if HHH returns.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That is insufficient knowledge. Sufficient knowledge proves that
>>>>>>>>>> DDD correctly simulated by HHH meets this criteria.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nope, YOU have the insufficent knowledge, since you don't 
>>>>>>>>> understand that the x86 language says programs are 
>>>>>>>>> deterministic, and their behavior is fully establish when they 
>>>>>>>>> are written, and running or simulating them is only a way to 
>>>>>>>>> observe that behavior, and the only CORRECT observation of all 
>>>>>>>>> the behavior, so letting that operation reach its final state.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 
>>>>>>>> 10/13/2022>
>>>>>>>>      If simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its input D
>>>>>>>>      until H correctly determines that its simulated D would never
>>>>>>>>      stop running unless aborted then
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      H can abort its simulation of D and correctly report that D
>>>>>>>>      specifies a non-halting sequence of configurations.
>>>>>>>> </MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 
>>>>>>>> 10/13/2022>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which you H doesn't meet, since the definition of "Correct 
>>>>>>> Simulation" here (as for most people) is a simulation that 
>>>>>>> exactly reproduces the behavior of the full program the input 
>>>>>>> represents, which means a simulaiton that doesn't abort.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since your H doesn't do that, or correctly determine what one of 
>>>>>>> those would do (since it would halt since you H returns 0) so you 
>>>>>>> CAN'T correctly predict that which doesn't happen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *Ben agrees that the "if" statement has been met*
>>>>>>>> *Ben agrees that the "if" statement has been met*
>>>>>>>> *Ben agrees that the "if" statement has been met*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, he agress that your H, which is NOT a Halt Decider, is 
>>>>>>> correctly answering your non-halt-deciding question.  In other 
>>>>>>> words, it is a correct POOP decide.r
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is literally true that Ben agrees that the "if" statement
>>>>>> has been met.
>>>>>
>>>>> Same words, but different meanings.
>>>>>
>>>>> SO, NO
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ben disagrees with the second part because Ben fails to understand
>>>>>> that HHH cannot correctly report that DDD would stop running until
>>>>>> after HHH forces DDD to stop running.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, HE understand that HHH to be a halt decider MUST correctly 
>>>>> report that DDD will stop running since HHH(DDD) returns.
>>>>>
>>>>> YOU are the one that doesn't understand the problem.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When you need groceries you cannot say that you
>>>>>> don't need groceries until AFTER you get more groceries.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Which is just Red Herring, as I am not a program, and the program 
>>>>> is not me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Something you don't understand, maybe because you sold your free 
>>>>> will and got a deterministic program instead.
>>>>
>>>> *Free will does not make lies into truth*
>>>>
>>>> If HHH reports that it does not need to abort
>>>> DDD before it aborts DDD then HHH is a liar.
>>>
>>> No, It COULD report that it has determined that it doesn't NEED to 
>>> abort its simulation, but does so anyway. 
>>
>> Says someone that acts as if lies are true.
>> If HHH reports that it didn't need to abort then HHH lies.
>>
> 
> Why do you say that, since it DOES abort, it doesn't need to.
> 

It correctly determines that it needs to abort,
it aborts then it reports that it needed to abort.

> You think HHH can be something it isn't because you just don't know what 
> a program is.

-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer