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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: sci.logic,comp.theory
Subject: Re: Infinite proofs do not derive knowledge
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2024 20:26:07 -0500
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On 7/10/2024 8:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 7/10/24 8:53 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 7/10/2024 7:33 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 7/10/24 8:17 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 7/10/2024 7:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 7/10/24 8:09 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/10/2024 7:01 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 7/10/24 9:58 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 7/8/2024 7:37 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 7/8/24 8:28 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Every expression of language that cannot be proven
>>>>>>>>>> or refuted by any finite or infinite sequence of
>>>>>>>>>> truth preserving operations connecting it to its
>>>>>>>>>> meaning specified as a finite expression of language
>>>>>>>>>> is rejected.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tarski's x like Godel's G are know to be true by an infinite 
>>>>>>>>> sequence of truth preserving operations.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Every time that you affirm your above error you prove
>>>>>>>> yourself to be a liar.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What error?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We know, that in the system the statements are made, tehre is an 
>>>>>>> infinite chain of truth preserving operationf from teh 
>>>>>>> fundamental truths of the sytsems to the conclusion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We know that because in a meta-theory we can develop additional 
>>>>>>> knowledge allowing us to see the infinite chain, with something 
>>>>>>> like an induction property or something else that reduces the 
>>>>>>> infinite to finite.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 7/8/2024 9:59 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>  > No, infinite "proofs" determine TRUTH, not knowledge.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You could just say, "I didn't say that correctly"
>>>>>>>> and we would be done.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Right, an infinite "proof", in quotes because that is the term 
>>>>>>> YOU use, even though there is no such thing, but in actuality it 
>>>>>>> is an infinite chain of truth preserving operations  DO establish 
>>>>>>> that something is True in the system, but by being infinite, we 
>>>>>>> can never dirrectly follow that path to know it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That was your mistake. You said that we could know it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Because we can, by knowledge gained in the meta-system.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Then it is no longer an infinite proof oh dim one.
>>>> It is a finite proof in another system.
>>>
>>> Right, ANOTHER SYSTEM. Godel's proof is that there is a statment that 
>>> is true in the system it is in with no proof IN THAT SYSTEM.
>>>
>>> Incompleteness is about a SPECIFIC SYSTEM having true statements IN 
>>> IT, what don't have proofs of them IN IT.
>>>
>>
>> That is the fatal flaw right there.
>> That I have food in my house does not mean
>> that you will not starve to death.
>>
> 
> So, you admit to not understand what is being talked about.
> 

I know what the common misconception is yet the
violates this truism:

Every expression of language that is {true on the basis
of its meaning expressed using language} must have a
connection by truth preserving operations to its {meaning
expressed using language} is a tautology. The accurate
model of the actual world is expressed using formal language
and formalized natural language.

There is no such connection from g in PA
there is such a connection from g in MM.

You even mistook a finite proof for an infinite one.
That is as bad as mistaking a turd for a hamburger.

-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer