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From: Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2024 09:56:40 +0300
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On 2024-07-10 18:27:27 +0000, joes said:

> Am Wed, 10 Jul 2024 08:37:30 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>> On 7/10/2024 2:18 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>> On 2024-07-09 14:14:16 +0000, olcott said:
>>>> On 7/9/2024 1:14 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-07-08 17:36:58 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>> On 7/8/2024 11:16 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>> Op 08.jul.2024 om 18:07 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Try to show how infinity is one cycle too soon.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> You believe that two equals infinity.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> void Infinite_Loop()
>>>>>> {
>>>>>>    HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>> }
>>>>>> void Infinite_Recursion()
>>>>>> {
>>>>>>    Infinite_Recursion();
>>>>>> }
>>>>>> void DDD()
>>>>>> {
>>>>>>    HHH(DDD);
>>>>>> }
>>>>>> Two cycles is enough to correctly determine that none of the above
>>>>>> functions correctly emulated by HHH can possibly halt.
>>>>>> That you don't see this is ignorance or deception.
>>>>> 
>>>>> There is an important detail that determines whether an infinite
>>>>> execution can be inferred. That is best illustrated by the following
>>>>> examples:
>>>>> void Finite_Loop()
>>>>> {
>>>>>   int x = 10000;
>>>>> HERE:
>>>>>   if (x > 0) {
>>>>>     x--;
>>>>>     goto HERE;
>>>>>   }
>>>>> }
>>>>> void Finite_Recursion(int n)
>>>>> {
>>>>>   if (n > 0) {
>>>>>     Finite_Recursion(n + 1);
>>>>>   }
>>>>> }
>>>>> void DDD()
>>>>> {
>>>>>   HHH(DDD); // HHH detects recursive simulation and then simulates
>>>>>   no more }
>>>>> The important difference is that in my examples there is a
>>>>> conditional instruction that can (and does) prevent infinite
>>>>> exectuion.
>>>>> 
>>>> When we ask:
>>>> Does the call from DDD emulated by HHH to HHH(DDD) return?
>>> 
>>> Why would anyone ask that? A question should make clear its topic.
>>> Instead one could ask whether HHH can fully emulate DDD if that is what
>>> one wants to know. Or one may think that HHH and DDD are so
>>> unimteresting that there is no point to ask anyting about them.
>>> 
>> A correct emulator can correctly any correct x86 instructions.
>> When it emulates non-halting code then itself does not halt.

> Oh? Maybe you should give your simulator and decider different names
> so they don't get confused.

A charlatan doesn't want clarity but confusion. A good charlatan just
dont what them so much that they would be noticed for that might expose
the charlatan.

-- 
Mikko