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From: =?UTF-8?Q?Samuel_S=C3=B6derberg?= <samuel@samuelsoderberg.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic
Subject: Re: Civ 7
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 20:55:26 +0200
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On 6/20/24 09:35, Kyonshi wrote:
> On 6/20/2024 1:00 AM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Jun 2024 15:08:18 +0200, Kyonshi <gmkeros@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/19/2024 1:37 PM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 19 Jun 2024 08:07:29 +0200, Kyonshi <gmkeros@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 6/19/2024 1:32 AM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 18 Jun 2024 16:35:42 -0000 (UTC),
>>>>>> <smaug@ereborbbs.duckdns.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rin Stowleigh <rstowleigh@x-nospam-x.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 18 Jun 2024 09:21:33 +0200, Kyonshi <gmkeros@gmail.com> 
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 6/17/2024 4:39 PM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 17 Jun 2024 15:08:33 +0200, Kyonshi 
>>>>>>>>>> <gmkeros@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/16/2024 4:39 PM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 16 Jun 2024 15:21:52 +0200, Kyonshi 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <gmkeros@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/16/2024 2:11 AM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 16 Jun 2024 00:38:54 +0200, Kyonshi 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <gmkeros@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/16/2024 12:00 AM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 15 Jun 2024 19:25:00 -0000 (UTC),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <smaug@ereborbbs.duckdns.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rin Stowleigh <rstowleigh@x-nospam-x.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 15 Jun 2024 11:09:38 -0000 (UTC),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <smaug@ereborbbs.duckdns.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rin Stowleigh <rstowleigh@x-nospam-x.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 14 Jun 2024 19:42:32 +0200, Kyonshi 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <gmkeros@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/14/2024 7:02 PM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 15:08:09 +0200, Kyonshi 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <gmkeros@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/12/2024 7:21 PM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Real AI (not what most gamers have historically 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> called AI) integrated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into dialog / behavior / relationships with 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other civilizations is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where the franchise should go next.  It's a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mistake if that's not done
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in Civ 7.  And if it's not done, it's only a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matter of time before a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> competitor gets there first.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so far there is no real AI. Just stuff they hype 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up as AI.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Look up YT vids for a game called BodyCam.  It 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> introduces a level of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> immersive visual realism to the tactical shooter 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genre that to my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge hasn't been done before, and it supposed 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> came to market via
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a couple of kids (well a 17 year old and a 20 year 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> old).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Someone will do something equally as disruptive to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the strategy genre
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> utilizing real AI soon, and if the Civ series is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> caught sleeping, it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will become irrelevant overnight.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There still is no real AI
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Years ago, I realized the juice simply was not worth 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the squeeze
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whenever I allowed myself to get baited into 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pendantic black holes of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opinion-presented-as-fact-discussion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But occasionally, it's probably good for the soul to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treat myself to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an occasional token episode of frivolous time 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wasting activity?  ;)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I'm curious what aspect of the current state of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> colloquially referred to as AI fails to meet your 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personal definition
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of "real"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when it actually manages to fit the definition of an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> AI, and not one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> written by the people that are just trying to sell 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you their next
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hypecycle.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be clear, I'm completely uninterested in strawman 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arguments, so I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> am asking.... specifically.... what aspects of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current state of AI
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do not qualify as "real"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is it intelligence?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is it actually intelligence, or is it someone hyping up 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an advanced
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> algorithm into something it isn't?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the problem is of course that intelligence itself is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not that well
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> defined, and that this helps the usual scammers to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claim that something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is artificial "intelligence" when it's merely an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> advanced mechanism.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why you're separating the word 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intelligence from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> artificial.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Artificial means fake.  Fake Intelligence.  So you're 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> asking for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something that's Real and Fake at the same time if I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understand
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Real intelligence is playing a multiplayer game against 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a human.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Computers are not capable of real intelligence, only the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> artificial
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> variety.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Real Fakel Intelligence" is an oxymoron; thus the quest 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-defeating situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no, artificial means "made by humans"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a building not a structure because it's artificial?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where did you find a building not made by humans?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> caves exist, are a structure, and have been used by humans.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Answers to questions I never asked is a prime example of why 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I stopped
>>>>>>>>>>>> wasting time on discussions like this, given the current 
>>>>>>>>>>>> state of
>>>>>>>>>>>> Usenet.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I dunno, you throw out stuff like "artificial means fake" and 
>>>>>>>>>>> expect me
>>>>>>>>>>> to accept that drivel without saying anything?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> as I said higher up "But occasionally, it's probably good for 
>>>>>>>>>> the soul
>>>>>>>>>> to treat myself to an occasional token episode of frivolous time
>>>>>>>>>> wasting activity?"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So believe me when I say I expected absolutely nothing from 
>>>>>>>>>> you, and
>>>>>>>>>> was not disappointed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ah, so I just fell for a troll?
>>>>>>>>> true, noone would have earnestly advocated for AI in that way. 
>>>>>>>>> Should
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