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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Infinite proofs do not derive knowledge --- Honest confusion ?
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 21:34:11 -0500
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On 7/18/2024 9:30 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 7/18/24 8:58 AM, olcott wrote:
>> On 7/18/2024 6:08 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 7/18/24 12:04 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 7/17/2024 10:55 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 7/17/24 11:36 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/17/2024 10:27 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 7/17/24 11:19 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 7/17/2024 10:11 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 7/17/24 10:46 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 7/17/2024 9:29 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/17/24 10:21 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/17/2024 9:12 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/17/24 9:33 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/17/2024 8:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/17/24 8:49 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/17/2024 7:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/17/24 8:02 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/16/2024 8:54 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/16/2024 8:11 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/16/24 9:34 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/16/2024 6:53 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/15/24 10:55 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/15/2024 9:18 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/15/24 10:06 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/15/2024 3:48 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-07-11 13:51:47 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/11/2024 2:07 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-07-10 13:58:42 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/8/2024 7:37 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/8/24 8:28 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Every expression of language that cannot 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be proven
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or refuted by any finite or infinite 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sequence of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth preserving operations connecting it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning specified as a finite expression 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of language
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is rejected.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tarski's x like Godel's G are know to be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> true by an infinite sequence of truth 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> preserving operations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Every time that you affirm your above error 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you prove
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself to be a liar.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is quite obvious that you are the liar. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have not shown any error
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> above.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard said the infinite proofs derive 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and that infinite proofs never derive knowledge.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is included in my "not shown above", in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> particular the word "proofs".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/8/2024 7:37 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > Tarski's x like Godel's G are know to be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> true by an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > infinite sequence of truth preserving 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We cannot know that anything is true by an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> infinite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sequence of truth preserving operations as Richard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> falsely claims above.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are just mixing up your words because you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't understd that wrores. amnd just making 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself into a LIAR.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Our KNOWLEDGE that the statement is true, comes 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from a finite proof in the meta system. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thus zero knowledge comes from the infinite proof
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You spelled "known" incorrectly as "know" yet 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claimed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that knowledge comes form an infinite proof.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can't even pay attention to your own words ???
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no "infinite proof".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/8/2024 7:37 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *know to be true*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *know to be true*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *know to be true*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *know to be true*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *know to be true*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by an infinite sequence of truth preserving 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nothing can ever be known to be true
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by an infinite sequence of truth preserving 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right, you just don't parse it right because you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't understand english.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "by" refers to the closer referent.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is KNOW TO BE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TRUE BY an infinite sequence of truth persevng 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The infinite sequence establish what makes it True, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not what make the truth known.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In other words when you are caught with your hand in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cookie jar stealing cookies you deny:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) That your hand is in the jar
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) That there is a jar
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (c) That there are any cookies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/8/2024 7:37 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > Tarski's x like Godel's G are know to be true by an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > infinite sequence of truth preserving operations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *From immediately above* [somethings] are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know to be true by an infinite sequence of truth 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> preserving operations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nothing is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> known to be true by an infinite sequence of truth 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> preserving operations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But it is known to be (true by an infinite sequence of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth preserving operations)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some cases such as the Goldbach conjecture's truth or 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> falsity may
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> require in infinite sequence of truth preserving 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operations as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their truthmaker. In these cases the truth or falsity 
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